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Optima, Gel or AGM, Advertised as both, which is it?

RJsfishin
Explorer
Explorer
This question came up,.......
Optima, gel or AGM, which is it? Whats the difference? Its advertised as both.
I know what an "absorbed glass mat" battery looks like inside, because I sawed one in half.
Rich

'01 31' Rexall Vision, Generac 5.5k, 1000 watt Honda, PD 9245 conv, 300 watts Solar, 150 watt inv, 2 Cos 6v batts, ammeters, led voltmeters all over the place, KD/sat, 2 Oly Cat heaters w/ ox, and towing a 2012 Liberty, Lowe bass boat, or a Kawi Mule.
29 REPLIES 29

tplife
Explorer
Explorer
NinerBikes wrote:
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Dang, tplife, I need to borrow your credit card ๐Ÿ˜ž


Around S. California, they just borrow your battery, permanently. AZ too, and car registration tags off of your license plate.

Here in SoCal, we mount our AGMS inside the coach (they're rated for precisely that)under the dinette, in a cabinet, etc., farther away from sticky fingers. We use a razor blade, make an X, across the registration tag. They can't take it all and you can have 3/4 and not get a ticket... ๐Ÿ™‚

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Probably my bad eyesight ๐Ÿ™‚

In the protocol what was the value of the discharge? I at the c/20 rate? 8 amperes?

I assume full recharging was instituted immediately after 10.5 volts was reached.

Your help will be of great assistance to a lot of people.

OptimaJim
Explorer
Explorer
Hi MEXICOWANDERER, the cycle defined in that chart is a discharge down to 10.5 volts. The comparison battery used in that chart was a standard group 31 flooded battery.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

kevden
Explorer
Explorer
I have been using both red and yellow top optima batteries for years with great success. I have a yellow top that was used for several years in our old camper, moved it to our new camper and used it for one season. It has been sitting unused in the basement for almost a year now. I do not keep a charger on it, I have just been checking it now and then whenever I think of it (usually 3 months or so) and it has never dropped below 12.5v I charge it up and forget it until next time.
Sams club stopped carrying them and now has Duracell agm batteries, so that is what I use now, in both regular and deep cycle, and have been very happy with them. Our tow vehicle, a Yukon XL, has a regular(not deep cycle) Duracell agm and it holds its charge just as well as the optima through the winter months (vehicle is not driven in winter).
I used to have to clean battery terminals every year on both the camper and our other vehicles, sometimes replacing the cable terminals due to corrosion. Since switching to agm's I have only cleaned the terminals once- during installation. No more rotted battery trays or acid eaten wiring harness either. I don't think I will ever go back to a wet cell battery.
2012 Keystone Outback 312bh

2003 GMC Yukon XL 2500 4X4 Quadrasteer

2010 VW Routan
2007 Chrysler Pacifica AWD

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
its already been quoted

"spiral wound AGM"

BTW IIRC GEL was invented/designed for the space programs and satellites
NASA needed something that would work/stay stable not stratify in ZERO GRAVITY
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Dang, tplife, I need to borrow your credit card ๐Ÿ˜ž


Around S. California, they just borrow your battery, permanently. AZ too, and car registration tags off of your license plate.

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Dang, tplife, I need to borrow your credit card ๐Ÿ˜ž

tplife
Explorer
Explorer
AGM batteries are designed as drop-in replacements for old-school lead acid batteries, but have so many advantages over them. Gel batteries have their advantages, but are more specialized in their applications. Buying an OPIMA Blue-Top battery instead of a bigger, heavier, acid-spewing maintenance headache is one of the best decisions in camping gear purchases I've made to date, right up there with $500 Sierra Designs tents and $400 Marmot 650-fill down sleeping bags. Their higher cost is only at initial purchase due to longer lifespan and other factors - for me they are turning out cheaper in the "long run" due to quality and their many practical advantages over typical lead-acid batteries.

Comparing Marine Battery Technologies

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Thank you for replying. As you probably have gleaned I am a cranky retired lead acid (flooded) design engineer, whose company performed independent cycle life and troubleshooting investigations for several OEM's.

In your chart above am I correct in assuming a 50% DOD. OEM's had nothing but problems with group 31 cycling exercises due to significant issues with acid starvation. Thusly I do not see many non VRB group 31 batteries in the cyclable market place. Love to know if your 31 competition was a Rolls / Surrette ๐Ÿ™‚

Finally your product enjoys a deservedly high reputation amongst the desert Baja Mil, racers because the spiral cell configuration seems to withstand high number G-force shocks with significant advantage over traditional VRB construction.

OptimaJim
Explorer
Explorer
NinerBikes, the percentage state of charge can vary by battery brand, manufacturer and type. Generally speaking, 12.4 volts is more than 30% discharged for our RedTops (and 34M BlueTop) and more than 40% discharged for our YellowTops and BlueTops (except the 34M).

BFL13, if batteries have become sulfated, our engineers have indicated that cycling them down to about 11.5 volts and fully-recharging them at 10 amps two to three times can sometimes help break up some of that sulfation and restore some performance. I should point out that batteries resting between 10.0 and 11.0 volts tend to be more likely to have a bad cell, as the math typically suggest about 2.1 volts per cell. Take one cell away from a 12-volt battery and you drop into that 10.0-11.0 range. That's not to say that a good battery can't be discharged into that range and recovered, but that batteries that tend to settle into that range after charging is attempted usually need to be recycled.

MEXICOWANDERER, you pretty much hit the nail on the head...if I'm reading your post correctly. For RV applications, the amount of reserve capacity remaining after a battery has been cycled dozens or even hundreds of times is what often matters most, although short of running such a test in one of our labs, most folks won't know until they hit that 300th cycle (if they get there at all). Generally speaking, the shallower the discharge cycle, the longer a battery will last in a given application. In the examples you cited, the battery cycled to 80% DOD will probably not be able to be cycled as many times as the same battery that is only cycled to 60% DOD. What capacity the OEMs expect probably depends on the OEM and whether that refers to the battery manufacturer or the RV manufacturer. This is a chart we use quite often to illustrate the difference between the cycle life of our batteries versus traditional flooded products (note the identical group size comparison).



Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Here's my shot: 300 cycles. 80% DOD depth of discharge, 20% remaining. Immediate and full recharge after discharge. What is the remaining 20 A/H capacity of a group 31 yellowtop after such an exercise? In other words, at what ampere hour capacity number would be expected as being "minimum" by OEM?

Sixty percent discharge, 40% remaining, same parameters?

Fully recharge the battery, then conduct a 20 A/H capacity test. Numbers?

BFL13
Explorer II
Explorer II
OptimaJim wrote:
Hello, I noticed your conversation regarding our batteries and wanted to offer some assistance. Rich, we know a lot of folks confuse gel and AGM technologies, so we make sure if someone is searching on the internet for โ€œOptimaโ€ and โ€œgelโ€ that they're still able to find our products. We never advertise Optima as having gel technology and as Chris indicated, we do specifically indicate on our site that Optima batteries are not gel batteries.

Our YellowTops and BlueTops (except the 34M) are all designed and warrantied for deep-cycle use, they all use 99.99% pure virgin lead (not recycled) and are found in a wide variety of consumer, commercial and military applications. Each manufacturer comes up with a combination for their batteries, that they believe will be of most benefit to their customers. Generally speaking, there is a trade-off between batteries of like sizes in terms of cranking amps and reserve capacity, where more can be had of one at the expense of the other.

As a result, comparing a single aspect of a battery's specifications does not always present a clear or accurate representation of the product. We encourage comparisons, but prefer that they accurately represent all products, using identical battery group sizes (we don't manufacture a Group 29 battery) and indicating cranking amps, reserve capacity, warranty terms and conditions and of course, price. In the case of tournament anglers and racers, we also encourage a weight comparison, as that is an important consideration for those folks. Even at that point, what won't show up in a spec sheet is how the battery performs after 10, 50 or even 100 cycles. This is often where there is the greatest difference between products.

The key to long battery life, regardless of brand or manufacturer, is proper voltage maintenance. Whenever any lead-acid battery is discharged below 12.4 volts and is left sitting in that state, sulfation begins to form, which diminishes capacity and lifespan. That makes a quality battery maintenance device an excellent investment for any vehicle that doesn't see regular use.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries


Good clarification. Point taken about making fair comparisons.

Can you tell us what the Optima procedure is for "recovery" of an Optima AGM if you ever did let it get sulfated somewhat, and what you call that procedure?

Thanks
1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.

wa8yxm
Explorer III
Explorer III
THANK YOU JIM.. I am one of the people who has used both Gel and AGM batteries for years (Let's see about 42 of them give or take a year for Gels. A bit less for AGMs) so I know the difference...

Trying to point out the fact Optima is not GEL.. Does get tiring from time to time, having an expert do it ... Makes it easier on me.

And I fully agree with your tagging it with both keywords. Since folks who do no research keep making the same mistake.
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
What percent charge is 12.4V? What voltage does a 100% charged optima start at, without a surface charge after freshly recharging?