WHEN I ASKED LIFELINE ABOUT THEIR GOLF CAR BATTERIES

[MEXICOWANDERER]

In relationship to say their 8-D battery, this is the answer I got...

Justin Godber

12:48 PM (0 minutes ago)

to me

When you talk about 1 battery vs. 2 six volts there is no advantage or disadvantage either way. The only advantage is the 6 volts are much easier to move around by yourself.

When you get into a 6 or 8 battery bank of six volts you can physically get more amp hour into the same space as the 8D’s using 6 volts. Example for the GPL-4CT, you can fit 3 in the place of 1 x 8D. If you had 2 x 8D’s you could fit 6 x GPL-4CT’s. GPL-4CT x 6 is 660 amp hour whereas 2 of the 8D’s would be 510 amp hour within the same footprint.

I knew this twenty years ago. But the superstition about "Golf Car" being a better battery somehow, just will not disappear.

The FOOTPRINT may be the deciding factor for many people. But as far as plates and general construction goes, choosing a 3-cell battery doubles the number of series cables needed

Nuff Said

[Gdetrailer]

wgriswold wrote:
12 ga is higher than 10 ga. One chooses the gauge that is appropriate for the length and amperage of the application.

You have things backwards, wire Gauge sizes mean the OPPOSITE of what you would think they mean.

12 ga wire is a SMALLER Diameter than 10 GA wire.

SMALLER DIAMETER OF WIRE MEANS IT HANDLES LESS CURRENT.

12 ga wire handles LESS current than 10 Ga.

See chart HERE which gives you the actual physical diameters of the wire gauges.

12 GA listed on that chart is 0.08080" in diameter.

10 GA listed on that chart is 0.10190" in diameter.

Last time I checked, .1" IS STILL LARGER than .08"..

For general use 12 Ga wire MUST be fused at no more than 20A.

10 Ga wire can be fused at no more than 30A.

If your RV has a battery fuse or breaker for 40A it MUST BE a minimum of 8 GA wire.

To be extremely clear, the ampacity above IS for INSULATED WIRE in free air.

Uninsulated wire in free air can withstand a higher current level, however that REALLY does not apply since it would really present a possible short circuit hazard if we stripped all of the insulation off of the wiring to get more ampacity..

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Other Lifeline



150 amp hour battery. I need to have a cart made for these guys. The 31T I can move by pushing on furniture moving discs. The 30 no way. I call this one the 2-story.

I want to power my reading light, fan, and bi-pap so I need to recharge both batteries every 4th day. I had no interconnect between the remote kitchen and my bedroom. The new casita is 90 degrees counterclockwise around the generator and half the difference in distance but a steeper walk.

I got the 2-story on an as-is purchase it had been stored for three years without charging. I used a 50-watt incandescent lamp, discharged it totally then jammed 14.4 volts into it. 164 ampere hours if I remember correctly. It's rested voltage is .06 less than the T -- not bad for $180 after a lengthy argument. It pegs my adjustable carbon pile load tester.

[wgriswold]

12 ga is higher than 10 ga. One chooses the gauge that is appropriate for the length and amperage of the application.

[Gdetrailer]

wgriswold wrote:

I think we are all in agreement. Wire gauge and length should be sized to the max amperage it will be be expected to carry. The connecting wires between banked batteries will be short and so can be higher gauge and carry the same amps that the longer wires carry from the trailer to the battery. Those of us with OEM electrical systems will do just fine with the short premade connecting wires available from the auto parts store.

Thanks for checking my thinking. All my electrical training came from a physics course many years ago and there was not much real world application so I always check with people who know more than I do.

Not sure as to what you mean about "a higher gauge".

Gauge number goes UP and the WIRE SIZE AND CURRENT CAPACITY GOES DOWN while RESISTANCE GOES UP.

Gauge number goes DOWN and the WIRE SIZE AND CURRENT CAPACITY GOES UP while RESISTANCE GOES DOWN.

IE 10 ga is bigger physically and carries more current and has less resistance than 12 ga.

2 Ga is physically bigger and has more capacity and less resistance than 4 gauge.

While it is true that a very "short" small gauge wire could handle more current, there IS danger in doing this..

#1, higher resistance = more voltage drop (and that IS bad especially with 12V)

#2, Higher resistance = MORE HEAT IN THE WIRE = INSULATION FAILURE = POTENTIAL FIRE HAZARD!

#3, Your very short small ga wire NOW BECOMES A FUSE as in that jumper WILL eventually fail by melting the copper..

The cost IS MINIMAL to at least use the SAME wire gauge size as a minimum starting point as the connecting wires from the RV to battery..

Upgrading to a larger interconnect wire (especially when talking the short distance between batteries) is mere Pennies.

Keep in mind that internally inside the batteries they ARE using very heavy Lead "Buss bars" that act as Interconnects between the cells. Only stands to reason that YOUR own external Interconnects should be as robust as possible for best performance of your battery bank.

Otherwise, you might as well just use a bunch of cheap "Ray-o-vac" dry cells in a flashlight to power your RV..

[MrWizard]

given the same foot print

i will pick the battery with the most lead, the one that weighs the most

[pnichols]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
As far as Lifeline's go the 31 commonly can replace group 24 or 27 batteries. Without real data it's hard to compare the Lifeline with other brands, other than claims the Lifeline has those .105" plates. And can safely accept C5 charging.

David, which Lifeline 31 are you referring to above (I know which one you yourself own) ... their good old standard Group 31 GPL-31T ... or their real Group 31 -> the GPL-31XT?

If I was to buy a Lifeline Group 31, the only model I would consider would be the GPL-31XT.

Each of the two 31's is about the same size, but that's where their similarity ends. I know of no other non-lithium Group 31 that can match or exceed the GPL-31XT's 125 amp hours. It's all about battery stored energy per cubic inch when drycamping in an RV.

[wgriswold]

Here is one 12V chart:

http://www.offroaders.com/technical/12-volt-wiring-tech-gauge-to-amps/

and here is another:

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-DgFaM8UxNNs/learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html

Most charts don't go down below 10 or 15 feet but I found these two that do.

I think we are all in agreement. Wire gauge and length should be sized to the max amperage it will be be expected to carry. The connecting wires between banked batteries will be short and so can be higher gauge and carry the same amps that the longer wires carry from the trailer to the battery. Those of us with OEM electrical systems will do just fine with the short premade connecting wires available from the auto parts store.

Thanks for checking my thinking. All my electrical training came from a physics course many years ago and there was not much real world application so I always check with people who know more than I do.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

There are safety margins and then there are folks who insist a 30-ply tire for a wheelbarrow is not optional.

Do a few voltage dropping checks under load. I'm seeing "must do's" that are weirder than whistling in the dark.

This is especially true of parallel connections with automotive style batteries with RV terminals. Look at the CONTACT AREA atop the post, that a ring terminal rests on. It is absurdly small and it is not even aluminum never mind copper. Try lead.

Some of these comments I'm reading are utterly off-the-rails.

True high amp terminals are not post
And certainly not wimpy RV type
They are "L PAD" and that way for a reason.

[Gdetrailer]

wgriswold wrote:
One thing that puzzles me is the worry about the gauge of the wire that connects two 6V batteries in series. The length would be 1 to 1 1/2 feet and the load about 30 amp. Charts tell me that 12 or 10 gauge would be sufficient.

But people are talking about fabricating 1/0 gauge connectors. I may be not understanding something or perhaps my memory of a 30 amp fuse on my positive lead to the battery bank is wrong.

What is wrong with just getting a short 4 or 6 gauge connector from the auto store?

Something called RESISTANCE.

RESISTANCE IS THE ENEMY OF LOW VOLTAGE APPLICATIONS.

You CANNOT USE VOLTAGE CHARTS FOR 12V HIGH AMPERAGE DRAWS, those are designed for 120V and higher.

5% at 120V is 6V of loss which IS a acceptable 114V.

5% of nominal 12.8V DC is .64V DC loss which puts you at 12.16V DC, most inverters will go into low voltage alarm at 10.5-11.0. This gives you VERY LITTLE headroom to work with.

Keeping in mind as you draw the 12V battery down (discharge), its NO LOAD VOLTAGE ALSO DROPS. This narrows just how long or how much you can run something at 12V and running a high amperage load now becomes impossible to maintain for but a few minutes before the inverter alarms and shuts off..

If you are using nothing more than the 12V furnace and a few lights you have nothing to worry about using a min of 8 ga interconnects.

Why 8 ga?

Simply put, your battery IS fused or has a auto reset breaker attached within 18 inches of the battery. That breaker or fuse IS there to protect YOU AND YOUR TRAILER from a SHORT CIRCUIT OR OVERLOAD of the battery to converter wiring.

Typically this is a 40A fuse or breaker, you fuse to the WIRE SIZE, 40A will require a min of 8ga wire for an interconnect. In other words your interconnect cables MUST BE NO LIGHTER GA THAN THE WIRES CONNECTED FROM THE RV TO BATTERY!

The Interconnect cables however CAN BE HEAVIER GA THAN THE RV TO BATTERY WIRING.

You can ALWAYS upsize the wire with no fear..

12V wiring is no place to cheap out, 12 GA, 10 GA interconnects are undersized for the fusing and creates extra unwanted voltage loss.

As you mention, 2 GA and 4 GA interconnects are easily available but when you are after high amperage things like 1,000W - 3,000W inverters it leaves a lot to be desired as far as voltage loss..

[wgriswold]

CA Traveler wrote:

wgriswold wrote:
One thing that puzzles me is the worry about the gauge of the wire that connects two 6V batteries in series. The length would be 1 to 1 1/2 feet and the load about 30 amp. Charts tell me that 12 or 10 gauge would be sufficient.

But people are talking about fabrication 1/0 gauge connectors. I may be not understanding something or perhaps my memory of a 30 amp fuse on my positive lead to the battery bank is wrong.

What is wrong with just getting a short 4 or 6 gauge connector from the auto store?

Were you checking a table for 12V?

The wire gauge that's needed is dependent on both the voltage, amps and the wire resistance which is dependent upon length and gauge.

The wire gauge you suggest is OK for some 12V applications.

Example: A 8A AC appliance would with an inverter will draw about 90A from a 12V battery and small wire would quickly melt.

Yes it was a 12V table and if my memory of a 30 amp fuse at my battery is correct then a 12 gauge would be recommended.

Of course higher amps require a lower gauge. The chart indicates that a 90 amp draw requires 8 gauge.

In either case it would seem prudent to go a little lower in gauge for a safety margin.

This is all for 0-4 feet.

[CA_Traveler]

wgriswold wrote:
One thing that puzzles me is the worry about the gauge of the wire that connects two 6V batteries in series. The length would be 1 to 1 1/2 feet and the load about 30 amp. Charts tell me that 12 or 10 gauge would be sufficient.

But people are talking about fabrication 1/0 gauge connectors. I may be not understanding something or perhaps my memory of a 30 amp fuse on my positive lead to the battery bank is wrong.

What is wrong with just getting a short 4 or 6 gauge connector from the auto store?

Were you checking a table for 12V?

The wire gauge that's needed is dependent on both the voltage, amps and the wire resistance which is dependent upon length and gauge.

The wire gauge you suggest is OK for some 12V applications.

Example: A 8A AC appliance would with an inverter will draw about 90A from a 12V battery and small wire would quickly melt.

[Boon_Docker]

Nothing is wrong with 4-6 gauge, will work just fine with a 30 amp setup.

[wgriswold]

One thing that puzzles me is the worry about the gauge of the wire that connects two 6V batteries in series. The length would be 1 to 1 1/2 feet and the load about 30 amp. Charts tell me that 12 or 10 gauge would be sufficient.

But people are talking about fabricating 1/0 gauge connectors. I may be not understanding something or perhaps my memory of a 30 amp fuse on my positive lead to the battery bank is wrong.

What is wrong with just getting a short 4 or 6 gauge connector from the auto store?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Yeah Matt, what a rude reminder a mid seventies body is not a mid thirties body 😞 Arthritic fingers, dried out shoulder joints, atrophied muscles....dang.

Well I can still see out of one eye and hear out of the other ear.

Better n a kick in the butt...

[Matt_Colie]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
As far as Lifeline's go the 31 commonly can replace group 24 or 27 batteries. Without real data it's hard to compare the Lifeline with other brands, other than claims the Lifeline has those .105" plates. And can safely accept C5 charging.

I'd love to figure out a simple rope cradle for these batteries that allows a full on grip to aid handling. Don't know which fibers like aramid kevlar and spectra would be the best.

None of the above, as a lifelong small boat sailor and racer, I can assure you that none of those is not going to be effective.

When last I bought (about two years ago), Lifeline 27 & 31 both had lifting handles. Both were manageable, even by an old guy....

The 4 & 8Ds also have handles, but when lifting them with a hoist, (like a mainsail halyard) it is a good idea to have a spreader as the handles are all the way at both ends.

Matt