Xanrex Inverter/Charger Over Charging

[littlesonny]

We had a solar panel and inverter installed when we bought our Jayco Whitehawk TT as well as converting the 12 volt to two six volt batteries. Expensive ones. The first time we used the inverter while dry camping it blew out the batteries, TV, and fried the inverter itself.

Back to the dealer who replaced everything at no cost including a newer upgraded inverter. They admitted they had screwed up the installation somehow.

Next time we took the trailer and hooked it up to shore power the inverter control panel showed an error message E10, overcharged batteries. Back to the dealer, who also did some other work. They said it was working fine there. Service manager said something about turning it off when not in use. Thing is, according to the manual you don't have to shut it off. Everything works automatically. But okay at the dealer the panel was reading normal.

As soon as I got it back and hooked up a shore line, after a short time once again the same E10 overcharging message.

Before I take it back to the dealer yet again I was wondering if anyone else has had a similar situation. I also wondered if somehow the solar panel and the shore line both feeding current to the batteries might be the problem. At the dealer it was in a covered shed. Only thing I could think of not having a clue how these things work.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. BTW, Xantrex support says the fault is not with the inverter.

[RasMouSein]

littlesonny wrote:
Okay. Been a while, mostly because the dealer doesn't charge storage when I leave with them even after it's been fixed so I left it there for awhile. I picked up the trailer today. Here's what they did.
Upgraded the batteries with a fresh pair of Lifeline batteries.
Installed the batteries in a lockable metal battery box that looks literally bullet proof.
Installed a Bogart controller and the companion Trimetric monitor.
And much to my surprise, they installed a new 2nd solar panel.

I'd asked for the better batteries, the controller and the
Trimetric but they threw in the battery box and the 2nd solar panel as well. None of this cost me a dime. Zero. Nada. Noit.

Service manager told me the whole situation was embarrassing and it was the least they could do for all the hassle. He also mentioned that with labor they had put about $8,000 with the upgrades into making things right . He also said that the reason they never thought about the controller is the guy who did the original install was a master electrician and it never occurred to them he wouldn't have installed a controller. That person was fired a while back.

As I told him, my grandma, who raised me, always said, "Everybody screws up. That's why they have erasures on pencils. When you make a mistake admit the mistake, apologize,and do everything you can to make things right." I have to say all the boxes were checked on this one.

I now have a system that I think is about as good as money can buy. We're going to take it out for a weekend shakedown dry camp in a couple of weeks.

Thanks to everyone for all your help. The knowledge I gained was invaluable in getting what I wanted from the dealer and I'm sure will be well useful in the future.

Sweet!! Need Pictures hehe, Now it times two learn all about the trimetric and sc-2030, and make sure they are set to the manufacturer spec of the battery.
Happy for you it was taken care of properly in the end.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Cydog15 wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
And yes you damned right I am arrogant about the unwashed passing themselves off as professionals.

If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black

Wotta Hoot

[Cydog15]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
And yes you damned right I am arrogant about the unwashed passing themselves off as professionals.

If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Excellent finish. You are fortunate enough to have encountered a vendor with ethics.

I remember a brand-new half million dollar 50' Royal Passport that sailed down from San Diego. It destroyed 8, 8-D gelled electrolyte batteries.

The factory had an idiot wire an external regulator Delco 10DN alternator ($450 Ample Power) like it was a Delco 10SI with integral regulator.

Wonderful. Full fielded the alternator. Along with the batteries the alternator cooked the stator crispy black

Passport paid for my labor, new batteries, and shipping. A pricey error.

[littlesonny]

Okay. Been a while, mostly because the dealer doesn't charge storage when I leave with them even after it's been fixed so I left it there for awhile. I picked up the trailer today. Here's what they did.
Upgraded the batteries with a fresh pair of Lifeline batteries.
Installed the batteries in a lockable metal battery box that looks literally bullet proof.
Installed a Bogart controller and the companion Trimetric monitor.
And much to my surprise, they installed a new 2nd solar panel.

I'd asked for the better batteries, the controller and the
Trimetric but they threw in the battery box and the 2nd solar panel as well. None of this cost me a dime. Zero. Nada. Noit.

Service manager told me the whole situation was embarrassing and it was the least they could do for all the hassle. He also mentioned that with labor they had put about $8,000 with the upgrades into making things right . He also said that the reason they never thought about the controller is the guy who did the original install was a master electrician and it never occurred to them he wouldn't have installed a controller. That person was fired a while back.

As I told him, my grandma, who raised me, always said, "Everybody screws up. That's why they have erasures on pencils. When you make a mistake admit the mistake, apologize,and do everything you can to make things right." I have to say all the boxes were checked on this one.

I now have a system that I think is about as good as money can buy. We're going to take it out for a weekend shakedown dry camp in a couple of weeks.

Thanks to everyone for all your help. The knowledge I gained was invaluable in getting what I wanted from the dealer and I'm sure will be well useful in the future.

[BFL13]

Put the solar controller to battery wires on the inverter/charger DC terminals so they share that fat wire and no need to drill holes for that route. Put the controller near the inverter/charger

#10 roof wiring was ok for the 150w panel to controller. 30 ft of #8 worked fine with my 130w panel at "12v". Got full amps. You could put your second 150 in series for a 24v array and install an MPPT 30 amper which will buck down to your 12v battery bank and have the "24v" wires to the roof, allowing for thinner wire. So 30 ft of #8 would be fine for that. (at 300w at 24v same amps as 150w at 12v so same wire gauge ok) Not sure #10 would be fat enough.

Trimetric--the key is everything negative goes on its 500a shunt including your big fat inverter/charger wire. Means stacking several neg lugs on the one shunt bolt which is not so good--you might need a "neg buss" to collect the various neg wires and run one fat neg wire from the buss to the shunt. The other end of the shunt has just one fat wire to the neg battery post. BTW, the existing wire from that neg battery post to the frame comes off the frame and onto the Trimetric shunt too so you can read whatever loads use the frame as their negative paths.

You need to pick where the Trimetric display will go--it is sort of in your face--so not right in front of where you sit, and then it needs a hidden route (such as in a cupboard behind the display) for its wire to the shunt, which will be near the inverter/charger with the fat wires there. You should pick those locations and not let the installer do whatever suits him.

[littlesonny]

Informed the service manager of the situation. He was very apologetic. He's offered to give me new batteries and a solar controller free of charge. All well and good but not enough in my view for the hassle and time spent.

They used #10 wire from the panel to the back of the breaker, maybe 8'. The run to the controller, if installed in the forward storage bin, will be in the neighborhood of 30'. I think perhaps a bigger cable is in order, especially if in the future I should want to add a 2nd panel.

I think they sell Zamp controllers but from what I've read a Morningstar is a better unit.

Currently, the cable from battery to inverter/charger is I think #2 and is 5'-6'. Labeling isn't really clear. Has 32mm squared in brackets. Might be 33. Have to see if that is large enough.

And then of course the Trimetric. Though I hesitate that they can install one correctly. I'll look up the install myself and relay that info and check that is what gets done.

Anything else y'all might suggest? We're basically doing a rewire and installing a controller and a Trimetric. I'm going to assume they'll do all this free of charge. If not, I'll be asking , why not?

[BFL13]

The converter is not connected to the solar panel as such. They are in parallel at the fuse panel. Turning on the converter should charge those batteries.

It will not overcharge them. The solar panel will when it gets the battery voltage above 15v, which will take a long time with those batteries so low and it being only a 150w panel lying flat in the winter's low sun. When you get to 15v or so leave it like that for a couple hours since the batts will need an overcharge anyway from being low so long.

Being under cover at the dealer's before meant no solar, so they didn't see any overcharge. You want a controller between the panel and the batteries, close to the batteries is ideal. IMO don't let them put the controller between the solar panel and the fuse panel since the wires from the fuse panel to the batteries are probably quite long.

TT's are the worst for that with the batts outside and you want the controller close but not outside. Some have drilled a hole in the floor up front to bring the wires from the tongue back and up to a front compartment where the controller would go. Now you need a route from the roof down to that compartment for the panel to controller wires. Depends on the RV what can be done that is out of sight.

Make sure they install a 30 amp or more size controller. (Those guys sound like they would try to give you a 5 amp one! ) You said you wanted to add a panel or two so start now with a controller that will handle your expanded array.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The batteries need more than a trickle charger. Set a CLANG CLANG CLANG timer somewhere and then disconnect the converter when it raises you a foot out of your chair.

Give the converter at least two to three hours then shut it down and then connect the trickle charger.

[littlesonny]

Also, the battery bank is down to well under 12 volts. Should I hook up the trickle charger straight away and get it back up to 14+ before taking the trailer back to the dealer? Should I reconnect the OEM converter at the fuse panel before taking it back? Seems like I might over charge the batteries again if I reconnect the OEM converter which is direct connected to the solar panel.

[littlesonny]

So, when told I couldn't find a solar controller where he suggested and asked if he was sure a solar controller was installed, the service manager replied, "No". He sent a picture of a Zamp controller, said it should be in a different place that first suggested and asked if it was there. It isn't.

On the off chance they had put it some place really stupid and to continue tracing the wiring from the solar panel I pulled the fuse/breaker panel out and determined that the wiring from the solar panel is hard wired into the fuse panel. The wiring comes into the back of the panel and pretty sure comes through to the two connections marked "battery pos" and "battery neg" as shown on the wiring diagram. https://www.dropbox.com/s/noozu262qvok1ua/Wire%20diagram.jpg?dl=0 10 AWG was printed on the outside insulation.

This would say to me that the solar was wired direct to the OEM converter with no solar controller and be the reason for the overcharging.

Would have to go back to Handy Bob's blog to check if the correct gauge wire was used. About to get back to the service manager with a cruise missile but want to get my ducks in a row when I start demanding a correct installation with specific directions as to what should have been done. I might just forward him the Handy Bob blog.

[allen8106]

littlesonny wrote:
Didn't realize PMs were blocked. I've changed that setting now.

I'm becoming all too aware I should have done my research before getting the solar system installed. I'm terrible at most anything to do with tools. I actually do a happy dance any time I can actually fix something. Doing the install myself was a non-starter. The service manager who put the system together for me told me that he has a cabin that over four years he installed a complete solar grid and seemed to know what he is talking about. I'm beginning to think, since he doesn't actually do the work, that he just left the install to the minions who didn't have a clue and may have just faked their way through it. I'll never know.

I'm going out sometime today to pull the fuse panel on the off chance they stuck the controller back there. I suspect not and if it isn't then there is no doubt a controller was never installed and we'll take it from there. Questions WILL be raised.

Sonny, Just call the dealer and ask them where they installed the charge controller. They should be able to tell you if there is in fact one installed.

[CJW8]

It is too bad you are not closer to some members here that have tried to assist you. I'm sure one of us would be glad to come over and help sort this out. It is my opinion that generally, an RV dealer would be the last place to have this kind of upgrade performed. The price you paid is easily double what it should have cost and it is essentially non functional.

My main concern at this point is the wire size from the new charger/inverter. It looks less than #4 wire (perhaps #6 or #8). This can get quite warm at the rated output from your 1000 watt inverter. It can also be in the range of 10% voltage loss for both charging and inverting which is very inefficient. The goal is 3% loss and some of us shoot for 1%. Also, this wire should be fused and I do not remember seeing a fuse being mentioned. Fuses are sized to protect wire, not devices. If the wire is too small but properly fused, the fuse could limit you from reaching full rated output if the inverter. Example: If it is #6 wire it would need a 80 amp fuse which would likely blow at full inverter load.

I am in agreement that either there is no charge controller or it is improperly installed and or programmed.

As I said, the last place I would go is a RV dealer for solar support. Most of us on here have done our own installations. At this point I think your best options are to find a mobile tech that also specializes in solar or a solar installer that also does off grid and RV's. In the meantime try and determine the wire size in your inverter... the red and black DC wires. If it is too small it presents a real fire hazard. Try and find the missing charge controller...I think it is AWOL.

[littlesonny]

Didn't realize PMs were blocked. I've changed that setting now.

I'm becoming all too aware I should have done my research before getting the solar system installed. I'm terrible at most anything to do with tools. I actually do a happy dance any time I can actually fix something. Doing the install myself was a non-starter. The service manager who put the system together for me told me that he has a cabin that over four years he installed a complete solar grid and seemed to know what he is talking about. I'm beginning to think, since he doesn't actually do the work, that he just left the install to the minions who didn't have a clue and may have just faked their way through it. I'll never know.

I'm going out sometime today to pull the fuse panel on the off chance they stuck the controller back there. I suspect not and if it isn't then there is no doubt a controller was never installed and we'll take it from there. Questions WILL be raised.