2023 Power Stroke vs 2023 Ram Cummins Towing Challenge

[FishOnOne]

Ford: Better towing acceleration, better performance, better fuel economy, less squat

Ram: Better exhaust brake, good ride quality.

Looks like the 6 speed vs 10 speed discussion has been exposed in this video.

Enjoy...

Link

This evaluation was performed by a Ram owner.

[larry_barnhart]

I kinda feel only a few think your statement is true. Because of just a handful seem to really care. retired from rving chevman. 2005 duramax dually is now a garage queen.

[FishOnOne]

4x4ord wrote:
^^^If it’s just about marketing I think 8 gears and a few more ponies would probably be enough for Ram customers to be happy. If it’s about actually keeping up to Ford up the hill the Cummins being a little higher revving makes enough torque at 1075 lbft but needs 500 hp at 2800 rpm to run neck and neck with the HO Powerstroke. I think adding 80 hp might not necessarily be that easy to do. It might be easy enough to just add fuel but meeting emissions and keeping the heat away may require some significant changes.

As of recent years Ram/Cummins don't like to suck hind teet, so I suspect there will be significant changes with the next gen HD trucks powertrain. The big question is when?

[4x4ord]

^^^If it’s just about marketing I think 8 gears and a few more ponies would probably be enough for Ram customers to be happy. If it’s about actually keeping up to Ford up the hill the Cummins being a little higher revving makes enough torque at 1075 lbft but needs 500 hp at 2800 rpm to run neck and neck with the HO Powerstroke. I think adding 80 hp might not necessarily be that easy to do. It might be easy enough to just add fuel but meeting emissions and keeping the heat away may require some significant changes.

[blt2ski]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:
The video that the troller posted originally has nothing to do with the HO engine and the Aisin transmission. It’s the old 68RFE that can’t handle the high output.

So, without question, a 2500 would perform better with a different transmission (preferably with 8 or 10 gears) that can handle more HP and TQ.

And if we’re making requests, let’s do a ZF since they are one of the best. And no, I don’t care even a little if the transmission is outsourced.

My 11 HO DRW 3.42's with 68rfe did a fine job with none of the complaints from others towing 30k combined. Probably because I ran the HE!! out of it for the first hundred miles, trained it well. Nice firm shifts! The only issue was getting the load rolling on grade. If it had 4.10's I would probably still own it pulling 35k+.

Ron,
You have just described the positive for the 8 and 10 sp transmissions. You won't need 4.10s with a 6 so to move 35k lbs. Because the 10 sp that Ford and GM use has a 4.56 iirc 1st gear vs you 3.5x. reality is, a 10 sp will have an overall low, lower than a 4.10 geared rig, yet give you the low rpm freeways gears.
My 6sp 4.3v6 has more torque hitting the ground than ANY of my 4.10 gear 4 so autos. I have a 4.10 in first, instead of a 2.48 in 1st, I can multiply more with my ra at 3.42.
This is what your missing with a 6 so vs a 10 sp.
My 6sp is better than my 4 so autos, not as good as the 8 so at 4.3 in 1st, 10 sp is about 4.5x. that lower gear you want for startup is in the transmission!
Ye Ford4x is correct, you may not tow much faster up hills on a freeway grade, UNLESS you can get more HP and or torque to the rear wheels.
Marty

[Cummins12V98]

Bionic Man wrote:
The video that the troller posted originally has nothing to do with the HO engine and the Aisin transmission. It’s the old 68RFE that can’t handle the high output.

So, without question, a 2500 would perform better with a different transmission (preferably with 8 or 10 gears) that can handle more HP and TQ.

And if we’re making requests, let’s do a ZF since they are one of the best. And no, I don’t care even a little if the transmission is outsourced.

My 11 HO DRW 3.42's with 68rfe did a fine job with none of the complaints from others towing 30k combined. Probably because I ran the HE!! out of it for the first hundred miles, trained it well. Nice firm shifts! The only issue was getting the load rolling on grade. If it had 4.10's I would probably still own it pulling 35k+.

[Cummins12V98]

4x4ord wrote:
^^^And if you're happy with 6 gears behind your 2015 Cummins you'd be ecstatic with 6 gears behind a new HO Cummins. Your 2015 is probably only making about 345 HP at 2200 rpm so someone could at least argue that a 2015 would benefit from more gears. The new HO engine will make more like 415 HP at 2200 rpm .... more gears certainly isn't going to make it pull a hill any faster. It might be nice to have another overdrive gear for running empty though.

It's nice you understand all this, and you seem to be the only one!!! Like I said 3.42's would net me a touch better highway mileage. 3.42's are basically same rpm in 5th as my 4.10's in 6th, 1,750.

[Grit_dog]

Bionic Man wrote:
The video that the troller posted originally has nothing to do with the HO engine and the Aisin transmission. It’s the old 68RFE that can’t handle the high output.

So, without question, a 2500 would perform better with a different transmission (preferably with 8 or 10 gears) that can handle more HP and TQ.

And if we’re making requests, let’s do a ZF since they are one of the best. And no, I don’t care even a little if the transmission is outsourced.

Well you’re in luck, once Ram finally does it. Because it is, has been and will be by all accounts a ZF Powerline model 8 speed trans.
And if it’s anything like the dead reliable best in business 8HP models and their predecessor (not ZF but Diamler) NAG1 5 speeds, it will be a great transmission.
And it’s already in use in European applications, for a couple years now I believe.
The plant was just finished to produce them down in Carolina a couple months ago with production for North American applications expected to start this year.
None of the current data brags about it being rated for more than 1000ft lbs but that rating is at almost 60kgvw and it’s designed for med duty and light heavy (small class 8s). Considering the “little” 8HP100 trans (different unit same company) is rated to like 700-800ft lbs and holding up fine in Hellcats, Red Eyes and Demons. And the Ram HD gassers use the lesser 8HP70, I’m sure the rating for the Powerline will be re-stated to work with the new Ram HO diesels, easily.

[FishOnOne]

Bionic Man wrote:
The video that the troller posted originally has nothing to do with the HO engine and the Aisin transmission. It’s the old 68RFE that can’t handle the high output.

So, without question, a 2500 would perform better with a different transmission (preferably with 8 or 10 gears) that can handle more HP and TQ.

And if we’re making requests, let’s do a ZF since they are one of the best. And no, I don’t care even a little if the transmission is outsourced.

Just to emphasize for Karen that the ZF doesn't have a PTO provision unless they're making a design change.

[FishOnOne]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
I can see it now...Today a 10 speed in a RAM HD truck is not necessary, but in the future when they're standard equipment, it will be the best feature offered in RAM trucks and the praises will be off the charts.

The big question is who is designing this transmission for Stellantis?

You talkin this mystery trans that has been coming for years?????

I guess I am. That's why I would like to know who's designing this new transmission to go into a HD RAM, because it has to be extremely expensive to develop and to set up a assembly line to produce it. RAM needs to install this new mystery transmission in 2500 trucks as well to get some economy of scale. I haven't looked at new RAM 3500's lately, but there was a time when most of them were still equipped with the 68RFE transmission including our 2018 Ram and don't know if that was because of cost or limited production capacity of the aisin (My gut feel is because of cost). Having said that it would be good if RAM could standardize on a transmission for their HD trucks, but that maybe difficult since they don't have the engineering staff to design their own transmission and outsourcing from another manufacturer maynot be cost competitive with the other 2 brands.

[Bionic_Man]

The video that the troller posted originally has nothing to do with the HO engine and the Aisin transmission. It’s the old 68RFE that can’t handle the high output.

So, without question, a 2500 would perform better with a different transmission (preferably with 8 or 10 gears) that can handle more HP and TQ.

And if we’re making requests, let’s do a ZF since they are one of the best. And no, I don’t care even a little if the transmission is outsourced.

[4x4ord]

^^^And if you're happy with 6 gears behind your 2015 Cummins you'd be ecstatic with 6 gears behind a new HO Cummins. Your 2015 is probably only making about 345 HP at 2200 rpm so someone could at least argue that a 2015 would benefit from more gears. The new HO engine will make more like 415 HP at 2200 rpm .... more gears certainly isn't going to make it pull a hill any faster. It might be nice to have another overdrive gear for running empty though.

[Grit_dog]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
I can see it now...Today a 10 speed in a RAM HD truck is not necessary, but in the future when they're standard equipment, it will be the best feature offered in RAM trucks and the praises will be off the charts.

The big question is who is designing this transmission for Stellantis?

You talkin this mystery trans that has been coming for years?????

It’s not a 10 speed and it’s not a mystery, but I’m sure you both know that. However it is far overdue and a long time coming and regardless of what my source says, I still have doubts it’ll be in the 2024 models.
Doesn’t need to be. Seems like new diesels are still in short supply and just about the only models that are selling for asking/premium prices still although forward thinking would require Ram to begin making the change before they eventually lose market share to the others. (Even though they could likely gain market share from informed buyers if they’d made the switch already)

[Cummins12V98]

Marty what you say is true but I already wish I could lock out first running BobTail. I have pulled away on some steep grades at 35k combined with no hopping of the drivetrain with my 4.10's and AISIN. Would I like lower highway rpm's for sure. To do it again I would have ordered my current DRW with 3.42's and AISIN. A friend tows the same weight Mobile suites with 3.42's and AISIN with zero issues at 200k on the clock of that 1/2 or more towing.

[Cummins12V98]

FishOnOne wrote:
I can see it now...Today a 10 speed in a RAM HD truck is not necessary, but in the future when they're standard equipment, it will be the best feature offered in RAM trucks and the praises will be off the charts.

The big question is who is designing this transmission for Stellantis?

You talkin this mystery trans that has been coming for years?????

[FishOnOne]

I can see it now...Today a 10 speed in a RAM HD truck is not necessary, but in the future when they're standard equipment, it will be the best feature offered in RAM trucks and the praises will be off the charts.

The big question is who is designing this transmission for Stellantis?