Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[canuck_1]

BertP wrote:
But, you didn't address the first part of my post. I understand what the weight limits are, but none of my vehicles will ever see anywhere near 20K lb per axle. So, that restriction simply does not apply to me or to most people on this forum. The problem as I see it is figuring out the weight at which I can be ticketed. That weight will be much higher for my dually than my Venture, but neither will even approach the normal weight limits.

So, how do we define "overweight? Is it only when you exceed the 20K/axle, etc or is it the weight at which you can be ticketed? It has already been established that there are DOT weight limits for our tires so if I exceed the weight limit of my tires is my truck "overweight"? I know I can be ticketed, but I am not over the other weights. My truck doesn't have a registered weight, so I can't be over on that.

Bert

Bert
Your questions have been answered too many times to play this thing again. Please stop at the local highway scales and maybe you will get the magic answer you are looking for.

[JIMNLIN]

Bert
those 20000 lb axle weights are "max" weights and as you say we don't come into that class truck. We come in the 10000 GVWR and higher weights that FMCSA title 49 mentions. Look at part 571.3 for definitions of terms for GVWR/GAWR/GCWR [no numbers]. Now we go to the state we are registered in for where those weight numbers come from and how those numbers are inforced in the state the vehicle is registered in.
My state for example, when a weight check is required for a 3500 DRW, first looks at the tires capacities. Those officers know what approx weights a 3500 DRW tires fit in. If someone has installed semi truck 22.5 wheels/tires or 4500 19.5 tires/wheels with those higher capacities on that 3500DRW that throws a red flag. The officer then goes to the truck manufactors axle capacities from the trucks door tag and will use the smaller weight numbers between the two. Let me repeat this again, "this is how my state" enforces commercial or non commercial weights on 10000 GVWR and higher trucks. As my state dot officer says "the same weight regs", pertaining to the trucks door tag/plates, are used for that 3500 DRW when used for DOT legal commercial purposes or non commercial purposes or just hauling a RV or using the truck for farm use or going to Lowes for a load on concrete.
I would talk with your province motor vehicle authorities [2 or more] on how they determine and enforce axle weights/tires capacities/and truck GVWR for your trucks class.
JIM

[BertP]

But, you didn't address the first part of my post. I understand what the weight limits are, but none of my vehicles will ever see anywhere near 20K lb per axle. So, that restriction simply does not apply to me or to most people on this forum. The problem as I see it is figuring out the weight at which I can be ticketed. That weight will be much higher for my dually than my Venture, but neither will even approach the normal weight limits.

So, how do we define "overweight? Is it only when you exceed the 20K/axle, etc or is it the weight at which you can be ticketed? It has already been established that there are DOT weight limits for our tires so if I exceed the weight limit of my tires is my truck "overweight"? I know I can be ticketed, but I am not over the other weights. My truck doesn't have a registered weight, so I can't be over on that.

Bert

[Wadcutter]

BertP wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the 20K/axle, 34K/tandem and 80K gross apply regardless of what I register my vehicle for? That would make sence to me.

Those are generally the legal axle/gross weight limits. Again, your registered weight limits have nothing to do with axle/gross limits. Registered weight limits is a tax an owner pays to haul "X" amount of weight. Axle/gross weight limits are the max you can carry on an axle or gross. Don't confuse the 2. Completely separate issues.

[BertP]

Wadcutter wrote:
We've been thru this before Bert on another thread, and also in this one.
You are talking 2 separate laws and somehow are thinking one is related to the other. Registration weights have nothing at all to do with axle/gross weights.
Registration weight limits is a tax. It's the amount a person pays to haul a certain amount of weight. If your state/province doesn't register their small vehicles by weight then it's not an issue for you.

So, what you are saying is that since Alberta doesn't register the weight for a private vehicle, I can load my truck or any other privately registered vehicle to 39,999 lb (19,999.5 lb per axle) and as long as I have tires to support that load, I will be legal? That doesn't make sence to me especially if I did that with my Chevy Venture or my wife's Malibu but I have not been able to find any law here or anywhere else that either supports or refutes that.

Wadcutter wrote:
Axle/gross weights apply doesn't matter what your registration says.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the 20K/axle, 34K/tandem and 80K gross apply regardless of what I register my vehicle for? That would make sence to me.

Bert

[ChucknKay]

This site provides state-by-state info on most of what is being discussed here. You may have to dig a little, but it's mostly all in this doc.

http://www.aitaonline.com/Info/Road/Low%20Clearances.html

[Wadcutter]

BertP wrote:
What about States and Provinces where there is no registerd weight for a vehicle? Here in Alberta, unless you register your truck as commercial, you cannot register any weight. So, my Chevy 3500 dually has no weight registered. Does that mean that as long as I don't exceed the 20K lb per axle or any bridge or road weight limitation that I cannot be fined for having an overweight vehicle?

We've been thru this before Bert on another thread, and also in this one.
You are talking 2 separate laws and somehow are thinking one is related to the other. Registration weights have nothing at all to do with axle/gross weights.
Registration weight limits is a tax. It's the amount a person pays to haul a certain amount of weight. If your state/province doesn't register their small vehicles by weight then it's not an issue for you.
Axle/gross weights apply doesn't matter what your registration says.

[pupeperson]

BertP asked: "....why is it that the DOT folks have told me that I will be ticketed if I exceed the load capacity of my tires?"

DOT ratings are separate and distinct from any other ratings. Because the rating on your tires is a Federal DOT rating, it carries the force of law and governmental entities can fine you for exceeding it. The government assumes, prima facie, that loads in excess of DOT rated capacity are dangerous to the public at large and are therefore illegal. End of story. I believe that is because the government is actually certifying that rating to the public and will go after companies whose products fail to meet the specific standards the government has set for them.

[BertP]

Wadcutter wrote:
Once again you are confusing 2 separate issues.
I'm done discussing it with you. You have a mental block on separation of the 2 laws - overweights and registration. 2 separate sections and one not related to the other. It's impossible for me to explain it any clearer than I have. However, your mind is made up and you can't seem to separate the 2 issues. That's a clear indication of someone not fully understanding the topic.

What about States and Provinces where there is no registerd weight for a vehicle? Here in Alberta, unless you register your truck as commercial, you cannot register any weight. So, my Chevy 3500 dually has no weight registered. Does that mean that as long as I don't exceed the 20K lb per axle or any bridge or road weight limitation that I cannot be fined for having an overweight vehicle? If yes, why is it that the DOT folks have told me that I will be ticketed if I exceed the load capacity of my tires? If that is not called "overweight", what is it called?

Bert

[JIMNLIN]

the OP is about door tag RAWR. Door tag GVWR has been thrown into the question. Just talked to a odot lieutenant today and just as the OHP shift captain I mentioned earlier said we use those door plate [he called them] GVWR/GAWR numbers for commercial and non commercial enforcement for under 26000 lbs. They both confirmed the same reg enforcement for dot and non commercial users. The both did say they don't bother RVs BUT if they were forced to stop a Rv for serious overload condition/severe weaving the same regs will apply. Odot liutenant did say tires are the number one priority in weight checks in under 26000 class our 2500/3500 trucks fit in. Again, this is how my state interpets and enfore per the officers I mentioned. Other states can be different.
Don't take my word but check out those commercial haulers webs I mentioned and read the different forum subjects on weights and enforcement. One thing you will notice one size don't fit all in how each state dot chooses to interpet FMCSA regs.

[Wadcutter]

JIMNLIN wrote:
let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers.

And let me say it again. You are confusing weight laws with registration. They are 2 separate issues.
What you are describing for the way your state registers trucks and trailers is exactly the same way done in IL.

JIMNLIN wrote:

your interpetation of your state weight laws and what mcs laws your state enforces may hold true in your state but your mistaking other state interpetation of those laws.

IL's MCS laws are the fed MCS laws. Even the sections are the same. When IL adopted the MCS laws in the very early 80s it was done in toto. Those were mandated by the feds to all the states.

JIMNLIN wrote:

MY state will enfore door tag weights and is cracking down on non commercial users such as 3500 trucks pulling heavy construction equipment.

Once again you are confusing 2 separate issues.
I'm done discussing it with you. You have a mental block on separation of the 2 laws - overweights and registration. 2 separate sections and one not related to the other. It's impossible for me to explain it any clearer than I have. However, your mind is made up and you can't seem to separate the 2 issues. That's a clear indication of someone not fully understanding the topic.

grey`eagle wrote:
Given the excellent information posted above. It appears that we RV'ers can safely and logically come to the conclusion that we are not subject to the weight laws (in IL and AL) for our class as long as we remain under 26,000#s.

RVers aren't subject to MCS laws. MCS just doesn't apply. Just to randomly say MCS would apply if over 26K doesn't take into account what MCS would actually require. People think if MCS applies then they'll need a CDL. If it were only that simple. If MCS laws would apply then RVers would have to complete a log book, limited on the number of hours they could drive, would be restricted to not carrying passengers unless properly licensed, carry an extra set of glasses if they wear them, carry extra batteries for hearing aids if they wear one, would have to carry a bill of lading listing everything they have in their RV, and all the other requirements commercial drivers have to put up with. In addition, if RVers were subject to MCS laws then any certified law enforcement officer could stop the RV without cause, do a complete inspection inside and out, and a LEO could place the RV out of service for too many hours or defective equipment with fines up to $10,000 per day.
But the fact is none of this even matters. This thread is about weight laws, not MCS laws. Since MCS is even mentioned by some shows they have no understanding of what it is about and they're talking smoke trying to give the impression they're informed. If they were really informed about the weight laws then they would never have mentioned MCS laws since MCS laws are completely separate from weight laws and have no bearing on the topic.

grey`eagle wrote:

For those that don't quite understand the references MCS law , read the link.

Your link concerns insurance issues. MCS is a whole lot more than insurance issues.

grey`eagle wrote:

Based on my testimony before juries and Grand Juries, I strongly believe that the inference and comparisons of vehicle mfg'ers limitation decals to mattress tags will not hold up.

Mixing apples and oranges. This entire thread has nothing to do with crashes, etc. It's about registration.
The fed stickers are required by law for initial sales. After that point they are not required on the vehicles.
Oh yeah, and I have testified too, quite a few times, on criminal and civil cases as not only the expert witness but as the person who conducted the investigation.

grey`eagle wrote:

If I'm not sadly mistaken, the reference to paint color is not on the limitation decal, it's buried in the VIN number. At least it is on the GMC and Ford products.

Ford and Dodge sure does have the colors listed on the fed sticker. It's been a while since I owned a GMC. It will be a 1 or 2 letter code listed somewhere on the fed sticker, right along there with the tire sizes, tire pressure, and other data that have no bearing on the law. It's simply amazing that guys get their undies in a wad worrying about what the sticker says about their weight but don't think anything about the same sticker listing tire size if they change tire sizes. Again, it all goes back to not understanding what it is they're talking about.
Also, the color is not part of the VIN. All manufacturers use the same 17 digit VIN numbering system. All the VIN does is tell the manufacturer, model, body style, year, plant where it was built, a check digit, and the sequential numbers. Nothing about color.

[grey_eagle]

Given the excellent information posted above. It appears that we RV'ers can safely and logically come to the conclusion that we are not subject to the weight laws (in IL and AL) for our class as long as we remain under 26,000#s.

That is unless we cause some serious or fateful accident due to negligence on our part due to the overloading of a tow vehicle and/or trailer combination, regardless of what the mfg'er has posted regarding weight limitations and/or restrictions.

It would very interesting to see what the trained and experienced experts from CA, NY, FL and other high viz states have to say on this matter regarding RV's and not operations that are strictly commercial.
If you remove any and all references to "commercial" in the above post, it appears that we are right back to square one. IMHO.

For those that don't quite understand the references MCS law , read the link.

I must say, this reminds me of the old age, "don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon".

NO, I don't have an automotive engineering degree and didn't stay at Holiday Inn Express. BUT, I do have a MS in Physics and 40+ years hard experience. Especially in the area of Kinetic brake energy limits in addition to the hard and true effect of density altitude on internal combustion engines.

And YES, I too, have been called to testify as an expert witness when families of the deceased were suing mfg'ers for negligent equipment malfunction.

Based on my testimony before juries and Grand Juries, I strongly believe that the inference and comparisons of vehicle mfg'ers limitation decals to mattress tags will not hold up. If I'm not sadly mistaken, the reference to paint color is not on the limitation decal, it's buried in the VIN number. At least it is on the GMC and Ford products.

My 2¢s worth which might get a cup of stale coffee someplace east of Poduck. 🙂

[JIMNLIN]

Wadcutter wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
Indeed those door tag GAWR are very much part of DOT inspection points that we get hit with if we are out of compliance on under 26000 combined plates. And the shift captains comment that they use the same vehicle plates [registered GVWR and door tag GAWR] just as DOT uses for over 10000k vehicles and under 26000k weights.

That tag has nothing to do with legal weight limits. Where the 26K kicks in is for determining when certain MCS laws apply. Those tags are non-enforceable for determining overweights which is what the OP was asking about.
======================================================================
let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers. If the state the truck is registered in has a uprate GVWR [as my state] that it is my registered GVWR. My last 3500 DRW had the 15000 GVWR uprate registration plus the 16000 GVWR trailer gave me my combined 31000 lb combined. Other operators say some states don't have a uprate GVWR so they were required to use their truck plates GVWR for their registration. dot also checked my GAWR [RAWR/FAWR] per door tag for proper load distribution. Thats all per dot requirements and how dot enforces under 26000 lbs and over 10000 lbs.
======================================================================

We don't use the tags to determine MCS either. We use the registration weight limits. Once again, the door sticker which is more correctly referred to as the federal sticker is not required by MCS or any other statute after initial sales. It's like the mattress tag. There are vehicles all over the US legally operating without the fed sticker. If a vehicle has had damage repaired in the area of the sticker or the vehicle has been restored and repainted then they most likely no longer have the fed sticker.
Here's one way to better describe the fed sticker. On my fed stickerfor my Dodge pickup it not only lists the manufacturer's weight limits but it also lists the amount of air for the tires and vehicle colors. It says tire air pressure is 50 psi. If I want to put 65 psi in my tires there's not a thing illegal with that. That sticker also says my color is maroon. But I want to paint my truck blue. Nothing illegal with changing the colors even tho it will no longer match the fed sticker. That sticker is a listing by the manufacturer of the manufacturing specs for that specific vehicle.
Also, you are confusing weight laws and MCS laws and registration and axle/gross weights. All of those are completely different statutes, which I have tried to explain previously.
[snip]

However, there is definitely confusion here. You are confusing MCS laws and weight laws. Those are 2 separate distinct sections of the law, neither of which has anything to do with the other. Weight laws are not MCS and MCS are not weight. MCS laws do not apply to the guy pulling his RV south for the winter or to the mountains and his favorite fishing hole in the summer.
Please, don't confuse MCS issues here. They have absolutely no application.

======================================================================
your interpetation of your state weight laws and what mcs laws your state enforces may hold true in your state but your mistaking other state interpetation of those laws. MY state will enfore door tag weights and is cracking down on non commercial users such as 3500 trucks pulling heavy construction equipment. And yes just as I mentioned before the OHP shift captain said they use the same GVWR/GAWR tags as dot. I've been through many weigh station checks when hauling commercial/dot and those dot officers certaily checked manufactors door tag weights. Your state may not check door tag numbers but the different states that I was compliant in sure did.
Don't assume if your state doesn't use MCS/FMCSA regs for non commercial enforcement that others don't.
Never had a dot officer check my paint per door tag but did get a couple of great color combo.

[Wadcutter]

grey`eagle wrote:

Also a specification of weaving in and out of traffic, or excessive lane changes (CA). OR "Failure to pass to left safely", this used in TX when a suspect rear ends another auto among other combined issues.

All of those examples you cited were multiple violations which give rise to the reckless and careless charge. Weaving in and out of traffic would be multiple events, not just a single improper lane change. Failing to pass safely and rear ending a vehicle are multiple events.
If a single event was the only element for reckless driving then any crash could be cited for reckless driving. However, that's not the case.

grey`eagle wrote:

I was advised by one of the LEO's that the point factor is higher should the person be cited and found guilty of the "careless and reckless" charge.

That is true as it applies to points for a single citation. A single citation for a reckless driving is more than points than a single citation for an improper lane change.

adamrmathis wrote:

And I happen think it is worth repeating:
LEO's are subect to the same errors the rest of us are. As a human, we all make mistakes. I'm not trying to bash any LEO's, just tring to point out that being a LEO doesn't make one correct.

My point being is that LEOs have training in the law, the average person does not. The average person gets their "legal knowledge" from watching TV shows, short clips from newspapers, what they see in the movies, and from listing to stories told by their friends and neighbors and then believing all that BS is true. The average person has never picked up a law book, has never read any actual statutes, and doesn't know where to go to find a particular statute if they had a book of statutes. That's not a guess or assumption on my part. That's from spending 35 yrs in LE and answering questions from the public on various laws.
How your referenced clip is of any relevance to this thread is beyond me as it has nothing to do with LEOs, weight laws, traffic laws, or criminal laws. I'm sure it makes some sense to you tho. But it does go to prove my point about the average Joe not understanding the law. For that, thanks for posting it. But I'll humor you. Grape Nuts don't contain grapes or nuts and Animal Crackers aren't made out of animals.
If the average Joe was as knowledgeable with the law as you seem to think then threads such as these wouldn't be necessary.

[_Adam_]

Removed.