Advice on fine tuning my wdh set up w/scale results

[Idaho33]

First off let me say this is my first post on this board but I have been lurking it for a couple of years. I have gone from a complete newb to having a fair understanding of TT/TV WDH dynamics thanks to the information posted here. This site truly is a wealth of knowledge, which is why I figured I would share my experience and hopefully get some insight on my current set up. This may get a little long so bear with me.

In winter 2011 my wife and I started to look at getting some type of towable RV. There are tons of great camping spots in Idaho but the spring and fall can tend to be chilly so it made the camping season shorter than what we were used to in California, and we also had a two year old daughter to consider. Our vehicles were an 08 Nissan Xterra 4x4 and an 04 Mazda B4000 4x4 (ford ranger).

We initially started looking at used pop ups (which in hindsight is where the search should have stayed given the TV's) but most didn't have very many amenities like A/C and an actual flushing toilet. I then discovered HTT's and liked the extra space and amenities but started having concerns about the weight. There were some very small ones but my wife felt they were too small and they were actually as expensive as bigger trailers. I decided that if we were going to go that big I would prefer a hard side for several reasons including not worrying about a bear getting you in your sleep through the tent (I love the outdoors but bears have always freaked me out).

So in spring 2012 we ended up purchasing our first trailer. A brand new keystone Springdale 189fl. An "18" foot bunkhouse. It was a great price and had everything we wanted. I told my wife I felt it was too big but she didn't want to hear any of that and the salesman agreed. The Xterra really did have a powerful engine and seating for three so it was the anticipated TV. It had a rating of 500lbs tongue/5000lbs trailer. At this point I knew nothing of GVWR and GCVWR. The trailer had a published dry weight of only 4170lbs and tongue weight of 455lbs and an overall length of 23'7" and GVWR of 5955lbs. The salesman said the Xterra could easily pull it. In fact I looked around at several dealerships and they were all the same. They said that as long as the dry weight was under 5000lbs I was good to go.

I got the X all ready to tow with LT tires, add a leaf, 7 pin wiring harness, aftermarket hitch, prodigy break controller, and some little suction cup tow mirrors. I did at least also insist that they throw in a WDH and friction sway control with the deal (it was they best they would do). I had looked on a lot of Xterra forums and saw pictures of people towing all manner of things including 30' hard sides and they all boasted about how the X was awesome and the tow ratings are way lower than they should be. I figured I would be OK as long as I didn't fill the water tank and packed light. Also my B4000 actually had a slightly higher tow rating and longer wheel base so I figured I could use that if I had too. BOY WAS I WRONG!!!!!

As soon as I took delivery and drove away from the RV dealership I knew I had made a mistake. That trailer felt like it owned the Xterra. I didn't even want to get on the freeway so I took surface streets the whole way. I did do one smart thing (because I had been reading this board) and ran it over a CAT scale on the way home. I don't have the slip any more but I was actually BARELY within GVWR and GCVWR. But that was by myself, completely empty, and not even a full tank of fuel. If I recall that trailer was more like 4700lbs dry and the hitch was over 500lbs with the WDH hooked up.

I got home and told my wife that the trailer was nice but we could NOT tow this thing camping. The next day I traded in my paid off B4000 (with only 50 something thousand miles) straight across for a 2000 "full-sized" truck with 200,000 miles. It was a Silverado EC 1500 Z71 w/ 5.3 V-8 and I think 3:43 gears. I didn't really know squat about trucks at the time either (I thought I did) and the salesman told me the truck was rated to tow about 9000lbs. I realized later that was NOT TRUE, it was actually rated for 7500lbs.

We pretty much exclusively dry camp so ready to go we are full of water, fire wood, generator, the works. That 1500 sagged under the weight, bounced pretty much like the Xterra did with an empty trailer, and was kind of white knuckle driving on the freeway when big rigs would pass me cause I was usually driving slower than they were. My biggest problem was that the thing would struggle and nearly overheat when pulling the mountain grades that we have here out west. Up Up in the mountains is usually our mantra when headed out camping. I was always worried that the tired 5.3 with 200,000 miles (which is impressive btw)would leave me and my family stranded on a mountain pass. I never did run it over a scale but the set up felt to be a bit much for the truck. I got rid of it the next year.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS DON'T EVER LISTEN TO SALESMEN!! EVER. NOT FOR TRAILERS OR FOR TRUCKS.

I then got an awesome 3/4 ton gasser. A black 2008 crew cab 4x4 Silverado 2500 HD w/ 6.0. Yeah baby! That thing towed great and was a sweet looking truck. Way more capacity than I needed in terms of tow rating and payload and even had a very nice integrated break controller. It was worry free towing. I never took it to a scale cause I didn't care. The downside, other than the initial price, was the fuel economy. I joked after I got it that the thing hated the planet earth. it was funny at first but I had to drive the thing back and forth to work 50 mile round trip and getting 13-14 mpg's combined got old. I decided that my trailer (5955 gvwr) didn't really warrant a 3/4 ton that I had to use as a daily driver. So I started looking for a capable (newer) 1/2 ton to do the job. I loved this truck but the monthly payments and gas bill were not fiscally responsible for towing a 24' trailer a dozen times a year.

Fast forward to present time and I now have a 2011 F150 screw. It has the 5.0 V-8, factory tow package, integrated break controller, 3:73 gears, and 157"WB. It is also, in my opinion, a very nice truck. It is actually rated to tow 9100lbs and has a GCVWR of 15100lbs. It gets me 16-17mpgs driving back and forth to work and that is acceptable to me. However, I knew beforehand that the weak spot of any 1/2 ton is payload so I finally towed with it for the first time last week and my first stop was a CAT scale so I could see what's what. My F150 is the 7350lb GVWR, it does not have the HD payload or max tow option. I would like some input on the results to see if I have my WDH set up properly and if my TW is where it should be. The trip was only about 100 miles round trip but was a mix of freeway, mountain grades, and dirt roads. It honestly towed great. it was very stable and had plenty of power. I had the WDH adjusted where the whole rig was pretty much within 1/8" of being completely level loaded.

For these weights we were loaded up and on our way camping. This is my wife, daughter, and I in the truck. Full tank of fuel (36 gal worth). In the bed is more than enough firewood for 3 days, a generator, a small BBQ and some other misc light weight items. The trailer is basically packed to the gills. Full fresh water tank (that is forward of the axles), 2 brand new 6v golf cart batteries and 2 full propane tanks on the tongue. Full of more than enough food, clothing, games for the now almost 5 yr old daughter, etc.. Basically everything we could need.


1st weight is truck only (with occupants, stuff in bed, full fuel, WD hitch head in receiver).

Steer Axle = 3700lb
Drive axle = 3040lb
Trailer Axle = 0lb
Gross Weight = 6740lb

2nd pass is truck + trailer without WD bars engaged.

Steer Axle = 3420lb
Drive axle = 4100lb
Trailer Axle = 4760lb
Gross Weight = 12280lb

3rd pass is truck + trailer with WD bars engaged.

Steer Axle = 3660lb
Drive axle = 3660lb
Trailer Axle = 4920lb
Gross Weight = 12240lb


My observations are that the trailer weighs 5500lbs, the tongue weight is 780lbs = 14.2%. And I am at a GVW on the truck of 7320lbs, only 30lbs under the GVWR of 7350lbs. Also, that the WDH did in fact transfer 160lbs of tongue weight back to the trailer.


My questions are does it appear that I have the proper amount of tension on the bars? I'm not sure how I pulled it off but is having exactly the same weight on front and rear axles ideal (it drove very nice)? Also, would it be prudent to try and load the trailer in a way to reduce the tongue weight slightly (say to 13%) since I am close to my GVWR on the truck?

I don't anticipate "needing" much more in the truck, but bicycles or a canoe may be wanted for future trips. I expected the payload limitation so I am just trying to fine tune things. For this trip I was within every single possible rating. From tires, to axles, GCVWR, Truck GVWR, Trailer GVWR...etc. It seems like a perfect fit.

The other morale of the story for people like myself two years ago is this. MY 1/2 TON PICKUP is pretty much maxed out on payload when towing a 24' Travel Trailer ready to camp. When shopping always anticipate that the trailer will be nearly as heavy as the trailer's GVWR when loaded and that the TW will approach 15%. And if I forgot to mention it earlier, NEVER TRUST A SALESMAN FOR TOWING ADVICE! I bought a trailer and am now on my fourth TV trying to find a perfect fit.

[the_happiestcam]

Idaho33 wrote:

snip
It honestly towed great. it was very stable and had plenty of power.
snip
it drove very nice
snip

That answers your question - you have it dialed in correctly.

[handye9]

Very good post !!!

Looks like you have a pretty good truck / trailer match.

Hopefully, there will be a lot of newbies who will read this thread, before they go out and buy that 35 foot trailer, to pull with their 1/2 ton trucks. Granted, there are a few 1/2 ton's that have the payload and tow capacity to do that, but, there are a lot more that don't.

I could have saved a lot of money, had I been reading this forum, before I went through a couple TV upgrades.

[BurbMan]

Nice story and thanks for sharing, you have traveled down a path that many, including myself, have when starting RVing. Except I never traded in my 3/4 truck, we just bought a bigger trailer!

I would say if the rig sits level, and you have only removed 40 lbs from the steer axle, that's OK. The 50% means you want to restore AT LEAST 50% of the weight removed from the front axle by the weight of the trailer. The idea is that you don't want to have floaty steering and headlights that scan the trees for birds at night. The important thing is that it tows nice and stable.

I also commend you for taking the time to go to the scales and see what's what, it's almost impossible to dial-in a WD setup without the numbers.

If you need to reduce tongue weight and still have GVWR capacity on the trailer, take a look at this mod.

I would watch out for loading...if your fresh tank is ahead of the axles and you go out full and come home empty, then adjusting the WD on the way home might be a good idea.

At this point, there's only so much you can do....if you like the way it tows, then I would say you're done with the set up, now have fun! BTW, welcome to the forum!

One last comment, watch the trailer tires...you are loaded at 5500 (4920 axles, 580 tongue) against a GVWR of 5955, be sure you have adequate load capacity on the tires as well.

[brulaz]

Idaho33 wrote:
This is a bit of a "bump" but do any of you think I have too much tension on the wdh? After I posted this I am noticing that most people end up with more weight on the rear axle. Is it bad for them to be equal or is that a good thing? I could reduce the tension a bit to achieve a rear bias. I have not been conservative at all in the way I load up for a trip so I could reduce weight to stay within gvwr if need be. Alternatively, without changing weight I could shift the load in the bed slightly rearward. When I took those scale measurements I had the firewood and generator forward of the rear axle. Or am I being too nit picky about getting the "perfect" distribution? Honestly, I have no complaints at all about the way it towed. And I have towed the same trailer with a 3/4 ton. I am just far more conscious of getting it right with the 1/2er.

Some of us are just more nit-picky than others.:)

People have definitely found differences in ride by doing all those things you mentioned. In my truck, the WDH setting determines just how much the "over-load" leaf in the spring pack is engaged.

Just how important those differences are ... depends, I guess.

[Idaho33]

This is a bit of a "bump" but do any of you think I have too much tension on the wdh? After I posted this I am noticing that most people end up with more weight on the rear axle. Is it bad for them to be equal or is that a good thing? I could reduce the tension a bit to achieve a rear bias. I have not been conservative at all in the way I load up for a trip so I could reduce weight to stay within gvwr if need be. Alternatively, without changing weight I could shift the load in the bed slightly rearward. When I took those scale measurements I had the firewood and generator forward of the rear axle. Or am I being too nit picky about getting the "perfect" distribution? Honestly, I have no complaints at all about the way it towed. And I have towed the same trailer with a 3/4 ton. I am just far more conscious of getting it right with the 1/2er.

[lbrjet]

I take the 50% guideline to mean at least 50%. There should be nothing wrong with returning 100% on any vehicle IMO.

Great job on the set up and on finding the right truck for your trailer.

[brulaz]

Idaho33 wrote:

...
Thanks for your input. I put nearly 100% of the weight back on the front and it rode and steered very nice. I'm sure the engineeres have their reasons but I don't understand the 50% guideline. I mean an empty truck rides around with more weight on the front than the rear axle daily. I don't get why they would recommend that the front be lighter than the unhitched weight while towing. I will certainly make sure I don't go over 100% weight return aka lower than unhitched height though.

Here's a thread that goes into it. Thread

Look for the posts by JBarca and RonGratz in particular.

[Idaho33]

brulaz wrote:

Idaho33 wrote:

...
one of my other concerns is that Ford recommends taking out only 1/2 of the front end rise with the WDH. It didn't look right to me and seemed to be sagging too much in the rear so I cranked it up one more link (still leaving 5 links between bars and hook point). It took almost all of the front end rise out and was almost completely level with the rear (1/8" higher in front, the rear still settled 1 3/4" to get there). It looked good and towed solid so that is how I weighed it.

One other thing that I was never able to find an answer to is should you set up your WDH and take your measurements with the bed of the truck full or empty? Like I said I carry a generator and a fair amount of fire wood, it makes a difference. For my measurements I used an empty truck for the before. My after measurements were with trailer + stuff in the bed. Most WDH set up posts I have read do not mention the amount of stuff in the bed or how to figure it into your set up procedure.

Yes, Ford says to reduce front end lift by only 1/2 (only return 50% of the weight lifted off it by 1/2), but others like Equal-I-Zer say to return up to 100% but not more. SO I've always figured 50-100% is good, and since I'm close to my rear GAWR, I'm going closer to 100%.

And you should have everything in your bed when you do the measurements. Everything should be loaded up. Everything.

Thanks for your input. I put nearly 100% of the weight back on the front and it rode and steered very nice. I'm sure the engineeres have their reasons but I don't understand the 50% guideline. I mean an empty truck rides around with more weight on the front than the rear axle daily. I don't get why they would recommend that the front be lighter than the unhitched weight while towing. I will certainly make sure I don't go over 100% weight return aka lower than unhitched height though.

[Idaho33]

Huntindog wrote:
Great post! I think your setup is good.... Close to the limits, but still good. Just be careful about gaining weight.. TTs are a lot like people that way.. They both tend to gain weight over time.
As far as the TW.. Keep in mind that since you boondock, that the fresh water weight will move from the FW tank to the waste water tanks.
I am guessing that since you said the FW was up front, that means the TW will be less on the way home. If you are using the heater, then your propane tanks will weigh less too. So TW being an the heavy side at the start of a trip is probably a good thing.

Thanks. You bring up a very good point about the drive home. I am certainly lighter on the way home and the balance will surely have shifted to the rear with water. I actually adjusted my hitch head down one hole after I got home because my perfectly level trailer when leaving was actually about an inch high in the front when I got home. And that was even with one less link on the wdh.maybee I should run it over the scales on the way home sometime to what the difference actually is.

[Huntindog]

Great post! I think your setup is good.... Close to the limits, but still good. Just be careful about gaining weight.. TTs are a lot like people that way.. They both tend to gain weight over time.
As far as the TW.. Keep in mind that since you boondock, that the fresh water weight will move from the FW tank to the waste water tanks.
I am guessing that since you said the FW was up front, that means the TW will be less on the way home. If you are using the heater, then your propane tanks will weigh less too. So TW being an the heavy side at the start of a trip is probably a good thing.

[Frizlefrak]

Here's how I set mine up....measure from rear fenderwell lip at highest point to the ground with the truck empty. Hook the trailer onto the ball without any WD stuff and measure again. Add links until the truck is as close to unloaded distance as possible without going over it.....ie....if the truck was 28" unloaded, and 24 loaded without WD.....and 3 links hanging gets it to 27" but 4 brings it to 28.5", stay with 3.

So far, so good. BTW....excellent post about the perils of believing what salespeople tell you. Too many times when we were shopping we would hear "you can tow anything on the lot". A couple of times I said, no, I can't. When the salesman replied that I could a second time, I told him to bet me $100 that a lot of the trailers were beyond my trucks published specs. He declined.

We bought a 30' TT new a couple years ago and love it, but my old 1989 F250 was near it's limits. It towed OK, and we put about 6000 miles on the combo, but this year we sprung for a 2014 Ram 2500 with the Cummins. Amazing difference in how it tows....I can imagine how the Xterra felt the first time you tried it. They're a great SUV....for what they're designed for....but towing something that heavy is beyond their capabilities.

[brulaz]

Idaho33 wrote:

...
one of my other concerns is that Ford recommends taking out only 1/2 of the front end rise with the WDH. It didn't look right to me and seemed to be sagging too much in the rear so I cranked it up one more link (still leaving 5 links between bars and hook point). It took almost all of the front end rise out and was almost completely level with the rear (1/8" higher in front, the rear still settled 1 3/4" to get there). It looked good and towed solid so that is how I weighed it.

One other thing that I was never able to find an answer to is should you set up your WDH and take your measurements with the bed of the truck full or empty? Like I said I carry a generator and a fair amount of fire wood, it makes a difference. For my measurements I used an empty truck for the before. My after measurements were with trailer + stuff in the bed. Most WDH set up posts I have read do not mention the amount of stuff in the bed or how to figure it into your set up procedure.

Yes, Ford says to reduce front end lift by only 1/2 (only return 50% of the weight lifted off it by 1/2), but others like Equal-I-Zer say to return up to 100% but not more. SO I've always figured 50-100% is good, and since I'm close to my rear GAWR, I'm going closer to 100%.

And you should have everything in your bed when you do the measurements. Everything should be loaded up. Everything.

[Idaho33]

Here is a photo of the rig.



Disregard, apparently I can't upload a picture from my computer.

[fla-gypsy]

Idaho33 wrote:

fla-gypsy wrote:
Congratulations on doing your homework and getting it right! As you noted you are very close to the trucks GVWR so be mindful of adding weight in any form. If you add something, get rid of something of equal weight. be sure to tell the DW she can't gain any weight either. Well, maybe you better hold off on the last idea for now. LOL

Luckily she is pretty light but I don't think that comment would go over too well for me. I could just imagine getting ready to leave for a trip and saying "babe, could you take one piece of firewood out of the back for me. Why? Because you look like you gained a couple pounds."

Great first post by the way