Any suggestions for PUPs or hybrids and tow vehicles?

[kfx216]

I need to buy a car by the end of the year, so wonder if anyone has any suggestions. Right now I have a Honda Odyssey - it has close to 200K miles. I like the Odyssey for the space with hauling kids and their friends and the sliding doors (my kids will bang up any regular doors), but would like better gas mileage. I really want to stay under $30K for a new car. I looked at the Honda Pilot when my car was getting serviced, and it's a nice car. Any others?

I also could use some direction on PUPs or even if a PUP will work for me. I am a single woman with two young kids. The PUP I had before, a 2004 Rockwood Forest River HW2516G, was too big both to haul behind my minivan and also to set up myself. I'm looking for something much lighter and easier to set up since it's basically just me doing it and we might take trips where we move every 1-2 days. And I want to have a shower and potty.

I might consider new if the price is under $15K; otherwise, I'd rather buy used for $5k or less.

Any options/suggestions? Thanks!

[4runnerguy]

Mike Up wrote:
Whether you use a WDH or a weight bearing weight, the tongue weight is the same on the hitch.

Actually Mike, this is not true. Why? Because the weight of the weight distributing hardware now rests on the hitch with much of it right near the ball so virtually none of that weight is carried by the trailer axle. Many of these WDH systems weigh 80-100#, quite an increase in tongue weight when one is already limited to 500# on the typical class III hitch that comes factory installed. Yes, some aftermarket receivers do have different ratings for a WDH, but that doesn't mean the vehicle itself will handle that weight.

A simple ball mount with ball is around 10#. If one adds on a 15# sway control bar, it is still a savings of 50#+ of tongue weight over the lightest WHD with sway control. If the tongue weight of a trailer is already north of 450# loaded, a WDH on a class III hitch may not appropriate depending on whether the vehicle manufacturer has a different rating for WDH.

[GWolfe]

mdcamping wrote:

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:
and you are saying there is still 650 or close to 650 LBS on my receiver?

correct?

Mike

Yes, the WDH moves weight from the rear axle, not the hitch receiver. Adjusting the WDH does not take weight off of the hitch at all, just takes weight off of the rear axle.

With more than a 13% tongue weight, you'll be over 650 lbs with a trailer that weighs 5000 lbs.

That's most likely why Tacoma and GMC/Chevy owners were breaking welds on their hitches, because they we weighing their rigs at the scales with the weight distribution hitch spring bars attached and leveling their rig. To properly find your hitch weight, you need to disengage your spring bars when you weigh it at the scales.

You can re-engage it to weigh and see if your axle weights and payload are correct and within ratings but that doesn't weigh your hitch/tongue of your camper.

Well I have to eat crow on this one... my mistake. Though I'm almost certain I don't have an issue. I will look into this before I start my 2015 camping season.

Mike

I must not be understanding this. Why do the hitches have two ratings then, one for dead weight and one for weight distributing?

[mdcamping]

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:
and you are saying there is still 650 or close to 650 LBS on my receiver?

correct?

Mike

Yes, the WDH moves weight from the rear axle, not the hitch receiver. Adjusting the WDH does not take weight off of the hitch at all, just takes weight off of the rear axle.

With more than a 13% tongue weight, you'll be over 650 lbs with a trailer that weighs 5000 lbs.

That's most likely why Tacoma and GMC/Chevy owners were breaking welds on their hitches, because they we weighing their rigs at the scales with the weight distribution hitch spring bars attached and leveling their rig. To properly find your hitch weight, you need to disengage your spring bars when you weigh it at the scales.

You can re-engage it to weigh and see if your axle weights and payload are correct and within ratings but that doesn't weigh your hitch/tongue of your camper.

Well I have to eat crow on this one... my mistake. Though I'm almost certain I don't have an issue. I will look into this before I start my 2015 camping season.

Mike

[Bumpyroad]

Mike Up wrote:
The low payload and low hitch weight rating on these trucks suggest that the low 6500 lbs tow rating is only for boats and car trailers that have little tongue weight, that will not go against the low hitch rating and the low payload rating.

nonsense, the Pilot when I looked at 2011s did have a different rating, 3500 for a TT, 5,000 for a boat. which is why I didn't buy one. others did not so specify.

bumpy

[Mike_Up]

mdcamping wrote:
and you are saying there is still 650 or close to 650 LBS on my receiver?

correct?

Mike

Yes, the WDH moves weight from the rear axle, not the hitch receiver. Adjusting the WDH does not take weight off of the hitch at all, just takes weight off of the rear axle.

With more than a 13% tongue weight, you'll be over 650 lbs with a trailer that weighs 5000 lbs.

That's most likely why Tacoma and GMC/Chevy owners were breaking welds on their hitches, because they we weighing their rigs at the scales with the weight distribution hitch spring bars attached and leveling their rig. To properly find your hitch weight, you need to disengage your spring bars when you weigh it at the scales.

You can re-engage it to weigh and see if your axle weights and payload are correct and within ratings but that doesn't weigh your hitch/tongue of your camper.

[mdcamping]

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:

And neither would I

My tongue weight is not anywhere close to 650#. I do know how to set up weight distribution.


Mike

Setting it up has nothing to do with the actual tongue weight.

Whether you use a WDH or a weight bearing weight, the tongue weight is the same on the hitch.

With a WDH, it's just distributing some of that weight off of the rear axle (not the hitch) to the front axle through leverage of the spring bars, which also throws some extra pressure/weight on to the trailer axles as well. However, the WDH will not lessen the tongue weight on the receiver hitch.

With a travel trailer, hybrid or not, you should be right around 650 lbs with an average 13% of total trailer weight. Perhaps you have a lighter tongue weight of only 12%, but never seen any TT ever go below that.

Glad it's working for you.

Yes It is working for me, "if" I was inclined I could adjust my WDH to where there is no level drop on my truck reciever.... and you are saying there is still 650 or close to 650 LBS on my receiver?

correct?

Mike

[Mike_Up]

mdcamping wrote:

And neither would I

My tongue weight is not anywhere close to 650#. I do know how to set up weight distribution.


Mike

Setting it up has nothing to do with the actual tongue weight.

Whether you use a WDH or a weight bearing weight, the tongue weight is the same on the hitch.

With a WDH, it's just distributing some of that weight off of the rear axle (not the hitch) to the front axle through leverage of the spring bars, which also throws some extra pressure/weight on to the trailer axles as well. However, the WDH will not lessen the tongue weight on the receiver hitch.

With a travel trailer, hybrid or not, you should be right around 650 lbs with an average 13% of total trailer weight. Perhaps you have a lighter tongue weight of only 12%, but never seen any TT ever go below that.

Looks like your 2011 Jay Feather X20E weighed nearly the same as my previous 2008 Jay Flight 19BH.

Glad it's working for you.

[mdcamping]

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:
Some what out of the box here... what about a crew cab Tacoma, 6500 lbs of max towing, gives you more options for PUPs, hybrids, TT's.

Mike

Tow rating is nothing. These are midsize trucks with midsize capabilities. The low payload and low hitch weight rating on these trucks suggest that the low 6500 lbs tow rating is only for boats and car trailers that have little tongue weight, that will not go against the low hitch rating and the low payload rating.

Been there, done that with a Pathetic Nissan Pathfinder with the 4.0L V6 rated to tow 6000 lbs and 600 lbs hitch weight, along with a low payload of around 1200 lbs.

A 650 lbs hitch weight rating would only net a dry unoptioned camper weighing around 3500 to 4000 lbs (based on factory options and loading from 1000 lbs. to 1500 lbs). Not many Hybrids or TTs in that weight range except the Forest River R-Pods.

In fact that 2005 Pathfinder needed suspension help with a heavier front trunk style pop up, that couldn't use a weight distribution hitch.

Unless you go full size, I wouldn't suggest any TTs or Hybrids other than the R-Pod type campers.

Mike, I've been towing 5000#+ since 2007 on my Tacoma (14 repeated state trips)

....I've had no problems.... :h

Mike

I would never chance it with a tongue weight over the rating of the hitch receiver. With 5000 lbs, any tongue weight over 13% will be over 650 lbs.

And neither would I

My tongue weight is not anywhere close to 650#. I do know how to set up weight distribution.


Mike

[Mike_Up]

mdcamping wrote:

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:
Some what out of the box here... what about a crew cab Tacoma, 6500 lbs of max towing, gives you more options for PUPs, hybrids, TT's.

Mike

Tow rating is nothing. These are midsize trucks with midsize capabilities. The low payload and low hitch weight rating on these trucks suggest that the low 6500 lbs tow rating is only for boats and car trailers that have little tongue weight, that will not go against the low hitch rating and the low payload rating.

Been there, done that with a Pathetic Nissan Pathfinder with the 4.0L V6 rated to tow 6000 lbs and 600 lbs hitch weight, along with a low payload of around 1200 lbs.

A 650 lbs hitch weight rating would only net a dry unoptioned camper weighing around 3500 to 4000 lbs (based on factory options and loading from 1000 lbs. to 1500 lbs). Not many Hybrids or TTs in that weight range except the Forest River R-Pods.

In fact that 2005 Pathfinder needed suspension help with a heavier front trunk style pop up, that couldn't use a weight distribution hitch.

Unless you go full size, I wouldn't suggest any TTs or Hybrids other than the R-Pod type campers.

Mike, I've been towing 5000#+ since 2007 on my Tacoma (14 repeated state trips)

....I've had no problems.... :h

Mike

I had a 2008 Ford Sport Trac and had pulled 5000 lbs loaded loaded as well and never had a problem.

The difference is that I had a hitch rating for 740 lbs and paid close attention to my payload. We only traveled with 3 of us and very light gear.

Now our family grew 1 and so did the stuff that goes into the truck. The Sport Trac with it's factory 1400 lbs payload and it's actual 1288 lbs of payload was to low. Today we would had overloaded the GVWR.

It's been shown on here where factory hitch receivers were breaking welds from going over their hitch ratings. Actually the Tacoma was one and well as 1/2 ton GMCs and Chevys. I would never chance it with a tongue weight over the rating of the hitch receiver. With 5000 lbs, any tongue weight over 13% will be over 650 lbs.

There aren't that many 5000 lbs 'loaded' TTs or Hybrids. Mine was 3900 lbs from the factory including 'factory options'. I previously weighed everything that went into it when I had the Pop Up. So I came in right around 5000 lbs.

As I said there really isn't any campers that come in that light anymore. Most are unoptioned and weigh over 4000 lbs for even the smaller floorplans. Many others that are less have ceiling heights and beds to short to even fit a 6' man as many of Jayco's SLX models. So I don't even consider them usable for the average joe.

Glad your Tacoma worked out for you but I don't see it working out for many that's why I recommend a Full Size truck based tow vehicle.

[mdcamping]

Mike Up wrote:

mdcamping wrote:
Some what out of the box here... what about a crew cab Tacoma, 6500 lbs of max towing, gives you more options for PUPs, hybrids, TT's.

Mike

Tow rating is nothing. These are midsize trucks with midsize capabilities. The low payload and low hitch weight rating on these trucks suggest that the low 6500 lbs tow rating is only for boats and car trailers that have little tongue weight, that will not go against the low hitch rating and the low payload rating.

Been there, done that with a Pathetic Nissan Pathfinder with the 4.0L V6 rated to tow 6000 lbs and 600 lbs hitch weight, along with a low payload of around 1200 lbs.

A 650 lbs hitch weight rating would only net a dry unoptioned camper weighing around 3500 to 4000 lbs (based on factory options and loading from 1000 lbs. to 1500 lbs). Not many Hybrids or TTs in that weight range except the Forest River R-Pods.

In fact that 2005 Pathfinder needed suspension help with a heavier front trunk style pop up, that couldn't use a weight distribution hitch.

Unless you go full size, I wouldn't suggest any TTs or Hybrids other than the R-Pod type campers.

Mike, I've been towing 5000#+ since 2007 on my Tacoma (14 repeated state trips)

....I've had no problems.... :h

Mike

[Mike_Up]

mdcamping wrote:
Some what out of the box here... what about a crew cab Tacoma, 6500 lbs of max towing, gives you more options for PUPs, hybrids, TT's.

Mike

Tow rating is nothing. These are midsize trucks with midsize capabilities. The low payload and low hitch weight rating on these trucks suggest that the low 6500 lbs tow rating is only for boats and car trailers that have little tongue weight, that will not go against the low hitch rating and the low payload rating.

Been there, done that with a Pathetic Nissan Pathfinder with the 4.0L V6 rated to tow 6000 lbs and 600 lbs hitch weight, along with a low payload of around 1200 lbs.

A 650 lbs hitch weight rating would only net a dry unoptioned camper weighing around 3500 to 4000 lbs (based on factory options and loading from 1000 lbs. to 1500 lbs). Not many Hybrids or TTs in that weight range except the Forest River R-Pods.

In fact that 2005 Pathfinder needed suspension help with a heavier front trunk style pop up, that couldn't use a weight distribution hitch.

Unless you go full size, I wouldn't suggest any TTs or Hybrids other than the R-Pod type campers.

[mdcamping]

Some what out of the box here... what about a crew cab Tacoma, 6500 lbs of max towing, gives you more options for PUPs, hybrids, TT's.

Mike

[4runnerguy]

PAThwacker wrote:
I have owned both a glamper popup and Spartan nonslide hybrid.

The only benefit the popup had was it fit in the garage.

Pups are not easier to tow, horrid to backup, sway easily, and one jerk of the wheel away from catastrophic accident. I have been towing all types of trailers, boats, and box trailers for 26 years!

We've owned a variety of camping vehicles, and after a four year stint with a hybrid, we gladly went back to a PUP.

Despite PAThwacker's experience, the PUP tows far easier. (I can't imagine that after 26 years, one doesn't learn some good towing techniques so as to not be "one jerk of the wheel away from catastrophic accident".) We had far more sway with our dual axle hybrid than we do with our single axle PUP. Both the PUP and our hybrid were the same length and weight, but the hybrid was taller and was like pulling a sail down the road. Far more susceptible to winds, and exacted a 30% mileage penalty when we towed it compared to the PUP. Over the course of the year, we typically save $500 or more on fuel with the PUP.

When we had the hybrid, probably the thing we missed most about the PUP was the openness. Open all the windows and let the light in and the breeze blow through. We found the hybrid and all similar camping trailers to be claustrophobic and isolating from the outdoors.

The biggest advantage of the hybrid over the PUP was easy access when we stop on the road. But since that's a very small amount of the time during our trips, that's not worth missing all the advantages of our PUP.

[Bumpyroad]

Ryanincc wrote:
PAThwacker hates popups and likes to say so on popup forums for some reason.

I assume it is that he likes to advise potential buyers/users that he feels that a hybrid is a better unit. is all you want is a "yes" man?
bumpy