DEF - Diesel Exhaust Fluid Video

[FishOnOne]

Since the question about DEF comes up here I thought this video can clarify some misconceptions and how DEF works in the Exhaust System.

Enjoy...

Link

[FishOnOne]

NRALIFR wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

45 ACP wrote:
NRALIFR,

Having owned both a 6.4 and now a 6.7, I can say with certainty that neither gave any constant indication of a regen taking place.

That was part of the reason I chose to install an Edge Insight CTS monitor. There is a small red "R" that appears at the top of the screen when a regen is taking place. The "R" appears about 10-15 seconds before the DIC shows "Cleaning Exhaust System" and it disappears as soon as the regen is over (or the truck is shifted into Neutral or Park).

As far as miles between regens, I can also say that my 6.7 performs regens about 40-50% less often than the 6.4. I had the same CTS installed in the 6.4 as I do now in the 6.7. I use both trucks as a daily driver and to tow the same trailer, so the comparison is valid in my view. The regen cycles are about the same length in time.

I get better fuel mileage out of my 6.7, even though I now own a dually (compared to the 2010 250 shortbed of my 6.4). Injecting raw fuel into the exhaust stream 40-50% less often must have something to do with this...

NRALIFR,
Sorry for the late response but it appears 45 ACP answered your question? Honestly I can't say what the life cycle of a DPF is on a 6.4 since most have deleted them. Having said that these emission systems really need to be highway driven to live a long healthy life. I know a guy at work that has a all stock 09 6.4 PSD and his daily commute is ~ 45 highway miles and he's approaching 160k miles with no issues on the DPF.

Thank you both for the response. As I mentioned earlier, I'm just trying to get a feel for what "normal" is for the 6.4's. I don't know anyone locally with one to compare notes with.

I've owned the truck in my sig since Feb/2012, and it had close to 60K miles on it then. It's previous owner was a building contractor, but I don't really know how hard it was used. I would think most of the miles would have to be highway miles to run them up so quickly. It has about 78K on it now. I don't drive it much unloaded, so I don't really know what it's unloaded mileage is. Most of the time my camper is on it which weighs about 5500lbs, and the mileage typically ranges from 9.0-10.0.

45 ACP, it sounds like you were averaging 225-325 miles between regens on the 6.4. I"m not sure mine has ever gone 300+ miles between regens while I've owned it. I think it was going at least 225, though. For the past year or so, it has been varying from 100-180 miles between regens, though. The regens last about 15 miles, and the mileage has stayed pretty consistent even though it seems to be regening a little more often.

FishOnOne, if you think about it, ask your buddy if he knows how often his 6.4 regens, and how long they last. It would be interesting to know that on a 160K mile truck.

Thanks again.

:):)

I'll get back with you on the regen frequency. In addition to his truck being his daily driver he also tows a large gooseneck trailer to their South Texas ranch either hauling tractor/shredder, round hay bails, or a couple Polaris vehicles on a regular basis so it get's worked pretty hard.

Keep on truckin! :B

[NRALIFR]

FishOnOne wrote:

45 ACP wrote:
NRALIFR,

Having owned both a 6.4 and now a 6.7, I can say with certainty that neither gave any constant indication of a regen taking place.

That was part of the reason I chose to install an Edge Insight CTS monitor. There is a small red "R" that appears at the top of the screen when a regen is taking place. The "R" appears about 10-15 seconds before the DIC shows "Cleaning Exhaust System" and it disappears as soon as the regen is over (or the truck is shifted into Neutral or Park).

As far as miles between regens, I can also say that my 6.7 performs regens about 40-50% less often than the 6.4. I had the same CTS installed in the 6.4 as I do now in the 6.7. I use both trucks as a daily driver and to tow the same trailer, so the comparison is valid in my view. The regen cycles are about the same length in time.

I get better fuel mileage out of my 6.7, even though I now own a dually (compared to the 2010 250 shortbed of my 6.4). Injecting raw fuel into the exhaust stream 40-50% less often must have something to do with this...

NRALIFR,
Sorry for the late response but it appears 45 ACP answered your question? Honestly I can't say what the life cycle of a DPF is on a 6.4 since most have deleted them. Having said that these emission systems really need to be highway driven to live a long healthy life. I know a guy at work that has a all stock 09 6.4 PSD and his daily commute is ~ 45 highway miles and he's approaching 160k miles with no issues on the DPF.

Thank you both for the response. As I mentioned earlier, I'm just trying to get a feel for what "normal" is for the 6.4's. I don't know anyone locally with one to compare notes with.

I've owned the truck in my sig since Feb/2012, and it had close to 60K miles on it then. It's previous owner was a building contractor, but I don't really know how hard it was used. I would think most of the miles would have to be highway miles to run them up so quickly. It has about 78K on it now. I don't drive it much unloaded, so I don't really know what it's unloaded mileage is. Most of the time my camper is on it which weighs about 5500lbs, and the mileage typically ranges from 9.0-10.0.

45 ACP, it sounds like you were averaging 225-325 miles between regens on the 6.4. I"m not sure mine has ever gone 300+ miles between regens while I've owned it. I think it was going at least 225, though. For the past year or so, it has been varying from 100-180 miles between regens, though. The regens last about 15 miles, and the mileage has stayed pretty consistent even though it seems to be regening a little more often.

FishOnOne, if you think about it, ask your buddy if he knows how often his 6.4 regens, and how long they last. It would be interesting to know that on a 160K mile truck.

Thanks again.

:):)

[FishOnOne]

45 ACP wrote:
NRALIFR,

Having owned both a 6.4 and now a 6.7, I can say with certainty that neither gave any constant indication of a regen taking place.

That was part of the reason I chose to install an Edge Insight CTS monitor. There is a small red "R" that appears at the top of the screen when a regen is taking place. The "R" appears about 10-15 seconds before the DIC shows "Cleaning Exhaust System" and it disappears as soon as the regen is over (or the truck is shifted into Neutral or Park).

As far as miles between regens, I can also say that my 6.7 performs regens about 40-50% less often than the 6.4. I had the same CTS installed in the 6.4 as I do now in the 6.7. I use both trucks as a daily driver and to tow the same trailer, so the comparison is valid in my view. The regen cycles are about the same length in time.

I get better fuel mileage out of my 6.7, even though I now own a dually (compared to the 2010 250 shortbed of my 6.4). Injecting raw fuel into the exhaust stream 40-50% less often must have something to do with this...

NRALIFR,
Sorry for the late response but it appears 45 ACP answered your question? Honestly I can't say what the life cycle of a DPF is on a 6.4 since most have deleted them. Having said that these emission systems really need to be highway driven to live a long healthy life. I know a guy at work that has a all stock 09 6.4 PSD and his daily commute is ~ 45 highway miles and he's approaching 160k miles with no issues on the DPF.

[45_ACP]

NRALIFR wrote:
Thanks for the info 45ACP.

I've been using a Scangauge to monitor some selected temps on my 6.4 but of course it doesn't tell you anything about the regen's. I may have to invest in an Edge.

On your 6.4, can you remember how many miles it went between regen's? How many miles did it have on it when you got rid of it?

:):)

Since it was a shortbed, the smaller fuel tank gave me about 320-360 miles between tanks for daily driving. I would average 1.5 regens per tank. Towing dropped that average to just below 1.

I never did track exactly how many miles between regens, so that's all I have.

My 6.4 had 34k on the odometer when I traded it in for my current 6.7

[NRALIFR]

Thanks for the info 45ACP.

I've been using a Scangauge to monitor some selected temps on my 6.4 but of course it doesn't tell you anything about the regen's. I may have to invest in an Edge.

On your 6.4, can you remember how many miles it went between regen's? How many miles did it have on it when you got rid of it?

:):)

[45_ACP]

NRALIFR,

Having owned both a 6.4 and now a 6.7, I can say with certainty that neither gave any constant indication of a regen taking place.

That was part of the reason I chose to install an Edge Insight CTS monitor. There is a small red "R" that appears at the top of the screen when a regen is taking place. The "R" appears about 10-15 seconds before the DIC shows "Cleaning Exhaust System" and it disappears as soon as the regen is over (or the truck is shifted into Neutral or Park).

As far as miles between regens, I can also say that my 6.7 performs regens about 40-50% less often than the 6.4. I had the same CTS installed in the 6.4 as I do now in the 6.7. I use both trucks as a daily driver and to tow the same trailer, so the comparison is valid in my view. The regen cycles are about the same length in time.

I get better fuel mileage out of my 6.7, even though I now own a dually (compared to the 2010 250 shortbed of my 6.4). Injecting raw fuel into the exhaust stream 40-50% less often must have something to do with this...

[mich800]

NRALIFR wrote:


One of the things I don't like about my truck, is the limited information it gives you about the regen cycles. On a normal regen, if you miss the initial "Cleaning Exhaust Filter" message that only displays for a few seconds, and you don't pick up on the slight change in engine noise, you don't even know a regen is happening or how long it lasts (unless you manually run a system check, and then the last thing it tells you is "Cleaning Exhaust Filter" if it's in regen). The only time it gives constant indication of a regen is when it displays "Drive to Clean Exhaust Filter", and then it will display the message until the regen is finished. It would be nice if there was an icon that illuminated every time it was in regen. Do the 6.7 truck give any more info?

One of the reasons given for changing the regen message was dealers were fielding too may inquires as to why this message was occurring. The early tunes did show the message and it stayed on until complete.

[NRALIFR]

FishOnOne wrote:

45Ricochet wrote:
Thanks
It will be interesting hearing the price to replace/or clean the added exhaust items when its time. Not sure how many miles they have in their life span.

The lifespan of a DPF is really dependent on the health of your engine (doesn't burn oil and injectors are in good shape) and how you drive your truck. Think of it this way a DPF can handle only so much soot/regen cycles until the metals/ash from the oil and residual carbon from soot clog the DPF to a point the trucks regen can't burn it off. I've seen quite a few 6.7 Fords with over 200k miles and a couple with over 300k miles with the original DPF, but these trucks are driven mostly highway miles and towing goosenecks which is probably the best senerio for DPF life. On the other hand I suspect a truck that's driven mostly in town will have a shorter life span. The above doesn't apply to the first generation DPF equipped trucks which are typically brutal on the DPF.

My '12 truck has 67k miles and since ~50k miles my truck actually regens less frequent now which to me means my DPF is in good shape and is no where near the end of life. I fully expect it to last at least ~200k miles and by then I'll probably have an itch for a new truck.

The good thing with the addition of DEF is there is less EGR volume therefore the engine can run more efficient which means less soot production and increased DPF life.

I'd be interested to know what you've seen that does apply to the first gen DPF trucks. I assume you're talking about the pre-DEF Diesels, correct? To clarify: I'm not looking for a rehash of 6.4's grenading in various ways. I'd like to know what day to day "normal" is for them. Specifically: how many miles between regens are typically seen on the pre-DEF Diesels? How long do the regens typically last? That kind of information about the DPF performance is available from the ECM, is it not?

One of the things I don't like about my truck, is the limited information it gives you about the regen cycles. On a normal regen, if you miss the initial "Cleaning Exhaust Filter" message that only displays for a few seconds, and you don't pick up on the slight change in engine noise, you don't even know a regen is happening or how long it lasts (unless you manually run a system check, and then the last thing it tells you is "Cleaning Exhaust Filter" if it's in regen). The only time it gives constant indication of a regen is when it displays "Drive to Clean Exhaust Filter", and then it will display the message until the regen is finished. It would be nice if there was an icon that illuminated every time it was in regen. Do the 6.7 truck give any more info?

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

:):)

[FishOnOne]

45Ricochet wrote:
Thanks
It will be interesting hearing the price to replace/or clean the added exhaust items when its time. Not sure how many miles they have in their life span.

The lifespan of a DPF is really dependent on the health of your engine (doesn't burn oil and injectors are in good shape) and how you drive your truck. Think of it this way a DPF can handle only so much soot/regen cycles until the metals/ash from the oil and residual carbon from soot clog the DPF to a point the trucks regen can't burn it off. I've seen quite a few 6.7 Fords with over 200k miles and a couple with over 300k miles with the original DPF, but these trucks are driven mostly highway miles and towing goosenecks which is probably the best senerio for DPF life. On the other hand I suspect a truck that's driven mostly in town will have a shorter life span. The above doesn't apply to the first generation DPF equipped trucks which are typically brutal on the DPF.

My '12 truck has 67k miles and since ~50k miles my truck actually regens less frequent now which to me means my DPF is in good shape and is no where near the end of life. I fully expect it to last at least ~200k miles and by then I'll probably have an itch for a new truck.

The good thing with the addition of DEF is there is less EGR volume therefore the engine can run more efficient which means less soot production and increased DPF life.

[TXiceman]

The Urea, SCR and DPF are not new technology at all. It has been used in industrial installations for a number of years.

I furnished several ammonia injection systems for emissions control on large power plants. The ammonia is a source for the N2 just like urea.

Kne

[jus2shy]

N-Trouble wrote:
Is the animation accurate for Ford diesel trucks? I'm only familiar with GM's system and the SCR/DPF is a single unit with the SCR first. DEF is injected upstream of the SCR/DPF not after the DPF as illustrated in that animation

GM and Ford are similar with SCR first. Cummins has the DPF first.

[NRALIFR]

45Ricochet wrote:
Thanks
It will be interesting hearing the price to replace/or clean the added exhaust items when its time. Not sure how many miles they have in their life span.

That's one of the reasons why I started this topic. I'm hoping to hear about how other owners handle that as well, especially when the vehicle is out of warranty.

I'm also interested in discussing and learning how these systems work. There does seem to be a fair amount of misinformation out there about DPF's, DEF, and SCR.

:):)

[N-Trouble]

Is the animation accurate for Ford diesel trucks? I'm only familiar with GM's system and the SCR/DPF is a single unit with the SCR first. DEF is injected upstream of the SCR/DPF not after the DPF as illustrated in that animation

[45Ricochet]

Thanks
It will be interesting hearing the price to replace/or clean the added exhaust items when its time. Not sure how many miles they have in their life span.