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Diesel vs gas......................

blt2ski
Moderator
Moderator
OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.



Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
4,683 REPLIES 4,683

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
"Take your car to its torque peak in first gear, and punch it. Now take it to the power peak, and punch it. Notice that it is a bit weaker? Fine. Can we go on, now? :-)"

If you puch it, the tranny will downshift as long as you are not in first gear. If max acceleration is at peak torque, why does it downshift?????? Downshifting takes you away from max torque and toward max HP.

I don't understand why you are writing such long winded posts outlining the definitions of torque and HP. To the best of my knowledge, no one has questioned those definitions. What is in question is the application of those definitions. For example:

"Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm."

You insist on perpetuating the myth that torque is power. OK, let's stay with that for a minute. By your admission, if you have the same torque numbers at 2000 rpm and at 4000 rpm, you will have twice the HP at 4000 rpm than at 2000 rpm. So far, so good. Now, if we are travelling at a set speed, at what rpm would you have the most torque on the drive axle, 2000 or 4000? Answer: you would have twice the torque at the drive axle at 4000 rpm than at 2000 rpm. Whether you argue that max acceleration is at max HP or max torque, in this case, we have twice the torque and HP at the drive axle when the engine is turning 4000 rpm than when it is turning 2000 rpm. Therefore, you will accelerate harder with the engine turning 4000 rpm than when it is turning 2000 rpm. Simple, what?

On Edit: In your post, you state that acceleration will be harder at 2000 rpm than at 4000 rpm for a specific gear. There is a lot of physics behind something like that because it takes power to maintain a particular speed. It's been a long time since I looked at it, but I believe that you require 4 times the power to maintain twice the speed. So, in your 2000 rpm vs 4000 rpm example, it will take 4 times the power at 4000 rpm to maintain speed than at 2000 rpm for a given gear. What I have been saying is for a given speed you will accelerate harder at max HP than at max torque. Depending on what gear you are in, you may also accelerate harder at 4000 rpm than at 2000 rpm in your example as well.

Bert

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
Force, Work and Time
If you have a one pound weight bolted to the floor, and try to lift it with one pound of force (or 10, or 50 pounds), you will have applied force and exerted energy, but no work will have been done. If you unbolt the weight, and apply a force sufficient to lift the weight one foot, then one foot pound of work will have been done. If that event takes a minute to accomplish, then you will be doing work at the rate of one foot pound per minute. If it takes one second to accomplish the task, then work will be done at the rate of 60 foot pounds per minute, and so on.

In order to apply these measurements to automobiles and their performance (whether you're speaking of torque, horsepower, newton meters, watts, or any other terms), you need to address the three variables of force, work and time.

Awhile back, a gentleman by the name of Watt (the same gent who did all that neat stuff with steam engines) made some observations, and concluded that the average horse of the time could lift a 550 pound weight one foot in one second, thereby performing work at the rate of 550 foot pounds per second, or 33,000 foot pounds per minute, for an eight hour shift, more or less. He then published those observations, and stated that 33,000 foot pounds per minute of work was equivalent to the power of one horse, or, one horsepower.

Everybody else said OK. ๐Ÿ™‚

For purposes of this discussion, we need to measure units of force from rotating objects such as crankshafts, so we'll use terms which define a *twisting* force, such as foot pounds of torque. A foot pound of torque is the twisting force necessary to support a one pound weight on a weightless horizontal bar, one foot from the fulcrum.

Now, it's important to understand that nobody on the planet ever actually measures horsepower from a running engine. What we actually measure (on a dynomometer) is torque, expressed in foot pounds (in the U.S.), and then we *calculate* actual horsepower by converting the twisting force of torque into the work units of horsepower.

Visualize that one pound weight we mentioned, one foot from the fulcrum on its weightless bar. If we rotate that weight for one full revolution against a one pound resistance, we have moved it a total of 6.2832 feet (Pi * a two foot circle), and, incidently, we have done 6.2832 foot pounds of work.

OK. Remember Watt? He said that 33,000 foot pounds of work per minute was equivalent to one horsepower. If we divide the 6.2832 foot pounds of work we've done per revolution of that weight into 33,000 foot pounds, we come up with the fact that one foot pound of torque at 5252 rpm is equal to 33,000 foot pounds per minute of work, and is the equivalent of one horsepower. If we only move that weight at the rate of 2626 rpm, it's the equivalent of 1/2 horsepower (16,500 foot pounds per minute), and so on. Therefore, the following formula applies for calculating horsepower from a torque measurement:

Torque * RPM

Horsepower = ------------

5252


This is not a debatable item. It's the way it's done. Period.
The Case For Torque
Now, what does all this mean in carland?

First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising. However, as I said, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*.

You don't believe all this?

Take your car to its torque peak in first gear, and punch it. Now take it to the power peak, and punch it. Notice that it is a bit weaker? Fine. Can we go on, now? ๐Ÿ™‚
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
Torque is a measurment of force, usually in foot-pounds.

Power is (Force divided by Time). This can be measured in Foot-pounds per second, but is commonly measured in Horsepower; 1 HP = 550 ft-lb/sec. In the context of car engines, power is the product of both torque and RPM. A handy equation:

HP = ( Torque * RPM ) / 5252

Despite advertising to the contrary, torque is what REALLY allows trucks to haul heavy loads and cars to accelerate quickly. However, more torque at the same speed equals more power, and power is what everyone wants. There is an old saying that goes, "People buy horsepower, but they drive torque." Torque is force, and force causes acceleration. Power is marketing, and marketing causes poverty.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
Measures of engine performance such as torque and horsepower are relatively simple, yet are often badly misunderstood by the public. Some of this misunderstanding is due to automobile advertising, some to people having just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and some to the continuing death-spiral of science education in America. I'll begin by explaining power vs. horsepower, then torque and how it is related to power. Finally I'll give examples of why knowing something about these concepts is important when comparing automobile engines.

First, letโ€™s note that horsepower is a unit of measurement for power, in the scientific sense of the term, just as the foot is a unit of measurement for length. Horsepower measures the same thing that the watt does--the power that a device can create or consume. Just as the wattage of a light bulb tells you how much power it will use, the horsepower specification for an engine tells you how much power the engine can produce.

Power is measured in many other units besides horsepower, depending on location and application. Watts (W) and kilowatts (kW) are in common use worldwide. Less common measures include British thermal units per hour (Btu/hr) and foot-pound force per minute (ft-lbf/min). Since any or all of these could be valid performance measures, technically it's more correct to talk about an engine's power than its horsepower. However, in practice most people in the United States use the two words synonymously.

Standard mechanical horsepower is defined as about 33,000 ft-lbf/min, or 745.7 watts. However, there are many different official and unofficial definitions of horsepower. Some of these definitions refer to different ways of measuring power for a specific application. For example:

* โ€œBrake horsepowerโ€ generally means that the power was measured on a type of dynamometer called a โ€œprony brake" (sometimes incorrectly called a โ€œpony brakeโ€--prony refers to the inventor, Gaspard de Prony)
* โ€œDrawbar horsepower,โ€ used in railroad applications
* โ€œAir horsepower,โ€ used in fan calculations.

Some types of horsepower define power at different magnitudes. Listing them in terms of relationship to the standard horsepower, we see:
Definition Watts ft-lbf/min
Horsepower (also called โ€œstandardโ€ or โ€œmechanicalโ€) 745.7 33,000
Boiler horsepower 9,809.5 434,107
Electric horsepower 746 33,013.3
Metric horsepower 735.499 32,548.6
Water horsepower 746.043 33,015.2

How did we end up with the โ€œhorseโ€ in horsepower? The term was coined by James Watt (1736-1819), the British inventor best known for his improved steam engines, who used the term to relate steam engine performance to that of horses. At the time horses were the primary energy source for applications ranging from pumping water from mines and turning grinding mill wheels to pulling carts and loads. Although sources differ on exactly how Watt arrived at the number, itโ€™s generally thought that in 1782, he noted how quickly a brewery horse could turn a mill wheel of a certain radius, estimated the amount of force the horse needed to exert to turn the wheel, did the math, and came up with a value of 32,400 ft-lbf/min, later rounded to 33,000 ft-lbf/min. Comparing the power output of a steam engine to an equivalent number of horses was an easy way for prospective engine purchasers to compare power ratings, so the term stuck.

What type of horse was a brewery horse? In England at the time a work horse most likely would have been one of the three British "heavy breeds" โ€“ the Suffolk punch, the shire horse, and the Clydesdale. The Clydesdale is said to have originated in the latter 1700s, perhaps too late to be a common work horse at the time Watt was doing his horsepower calculations. So it seems likely the horse in question was either a Suffolk punch or a shire horse.

Now letโ€™s talk torque. Torque is turning force, which for automotive applications is most often measured in either foot-pounds (ft-lbf) or Newton-meters (N-m). Sometimes these are written as lbf-ft or m-N, a convention some use to differentiate torque from work, since they involve the same units . . . but I digress.

Here's a simple way to visualize torque: Imagine holding a 1-pound weight straight out, with your arm parallel to the ground. My arm measures about two feet from shoulder to wrist. If I hold a 1-pound weight straight out, the torque my shoulder experiences is roughly 2 foot-pounds (2 feet times 1 pound). If I were to hold a 10 pound weight in my hand, then the torque on my shoulder would be roughly 20 foot-pounds (2 feet times 10 pounds).

Now think of this turning force applied to a wheel, such as if a lever was attached to the center of an automobile wheel. The more force you apply on that lever, the more torque you apply to the wheel, the more readily the wheel turns, and the faster the car starts moving. See where Iโ€™m going with this? Torque is a measure of the ability of an engine to do work. It's a component of, but not the same as, the (horse) power of the engine, which is the rate at which work can be done. In an automotive engine, power and torque are related by a simple equation that considers torque, engine speed (in revolutions per minute), and a conversion factor:

In this equation, torque is expressed in terms of ft-lbf, the engine speed is given in revolutions per minute, and 5252 is a conversion constant. An engine's horsepower, then, isn't constant, but rather varies with its speed. The numbers you see quoted in brochures and so on indicate peak horsepower. Such figures can be misleading, as we shall now see.

Letโ€™s say we're trying to decide between Engine A and Engine B for a high-performance car. Here's a chart showing the peak power and torque for each engine:

Power, hp Torque, ft-lbf
Engine A

224


300
Engine B

247


210


At first glance, Engine B looks like the better choice โ€“ it has 23 more peak horsepower! However, now let's look at a graph of the power curves of these two engines, showing their power as a function of engine speed.



Notice that although Engine B has more peak horsepower, Engine A has more power at speeds up to 5500 rpm. What's more, it has significantly more power in the 1500-4000 rpm range (highlighted area), the range of engine speeds in which you'd typically operate a car.

Now let's look at the torque curves of the two engines:http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/post/forum/41/thread/13990963/parent/13990963.cfm



We see that Engine A puts out much greater torque, especially over the typical engine speed range, indicating that under normal conditions Engine A will give you much more โ€œoomphโ€ than Engine B. Peak numbers are nice to brag about but often don't mean much, since few people operate their engines at peak conditions (which would generally be full throttle) in a typical day.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
I already explained this to you, David. I stated in an earlier post:

8.1: torque = 340 * 5252 / 500 = 3571 lb/ft
DMax: torque = 300 * 5252 / 500 = 3151 lb/ft

If you want to compare two engines of the same HP - diesel 300 @ 3000 rpm and gasser 300 @ 5000 rpm, we would end up with exactly the same torque at the axle. To start, torque at the flywheel:

gasser: 300 * 5252 / 5000 = 315 lb-ft
diesel: 300 * 5252 / 3000 = 525 lb-ft

Now, assuming the same 500 rpm of the wheels, the gasser needs a 10:1 total gear reduction and the diesel needs a 6:1 reduction.

gasser: 315 * 10 = 3150 lb-ft
diesel: 525 * 6 = 3150 lb-ft

Exactly the same torque present at the drive axle.

Bert

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
It's not even mine or yours since we both have a diesel truck and probably both have or have had a gas truck too.


I just can't seem to accept that torque has nothing to do with the strength of an engine. It's come down to that one factor.

A. Torque has nothing whatsoever to do with the strength of an engine.

B. Torque has something to do with the strength of an engine.


I think some people actually enjoy this.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

cableguy574
Explorer
Explorer
Somepeople will never be happy they just want to say mine is better then
yours.........lets have some fun...:B
2008 National Pacifica V36a
2014 Jeep Wrangler /Brake Buddy
JUST Me & My wife & dogs ๐Ÿ™‚
FMCA 387898
A member of NUTS

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
However you can't compare those ratings directly. If they were to be compared at the transmission output then you can use this as a valid comparison between the two types of engines. There you could measure rotational force and calculate horsepower.

With our truck engines the difference we are talking about is the engine. They didn't build all of the other components of a truck at seperate places for diesel trucks and gas trucks. The other components are the same.

The differential gears of a gas POWERed truck is going to allow higher rpm. These are still the same gears used for years and are not special for one type fuel over the other, 3.73, 4.10 in the case of the 2500.

Do you really believe that this compensation using only two generic sets of gears can account precisely for the exact difference between a diesel motor and a gas motor and end up with the exact same output to the ground. Despite the fact that the diesel now has even more torque and a lower max rpm to get the same 300 hp

One engine is stronger than the other. Even if they are built identically one will be stronger and the truck will be faster and have more pulling power at the same max rpm with all other components the same.

So how can two different engines possibly be EXACTLY the same output to the ground.



Simply explain in relation to these two trucks with 300 hp and diesel with more torque, gas has 4.10 and diesel has 3.73 diff. Where does the excess amount of torque go in the deisel truck if not to the ground.

You still have not explained why one engine can put more measured force on a brake than the other, thus receiving a higher torque rating. Then strangely enough it suddenly looses all that extra strength somehow in the rest of the truck between the engine and the tires and somehow performs EXACTLY the same.

Do they intentionally screw up the components on a diesel so it matches the exact output? If the gas engine has such an effecient system to keep from losing power and the diesel does not why don't they just use this technology on a diesel.



Claiming they would have EXACTLY the same performance is just you stating what you think again with no logical explanation.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
I hate to tell you this, David, but a turbine engine is a combustion engine. Not all combustion engines have crank shafts. Our diesels and gassers do because the force they actually produce is linear and has to be converted into torque by a crankshaft. That aside, torque is torque regardless of whether it was produced by a diesel, a gasser, a turbine, an electric motor, an elastic band or any other method you care to produce it with. So, the tank example is perfectly valid. Plus, while the Abrahms itself is only available with a turbine engine, there are other tanks in the world that are available with either a turbine or a diesel of the same HP. With the exception of range (turbines are thirsty beasts), the performance of the tank is exactly the same regardless of which engine it has even though the turbine typically produces less than 300 lb-ft of torque and the same HP diesel produces around 4000 lb-ft or more. Exactly the same performance.

Bert

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
The tank is not going to be comparable to combustion engine like we have in our trucks when you are talking about relationships between torque and horsepower.


When you look at a combustion engine and what makes the crankshaft turn to produce an output which is used to move a load it does not matter if it's gas or diesel.

Both types of engines are the same. They have pistons used to displace air in a cylinder to move the crankshaft. Torque is the measurement of force produced by the engine in a rotational manner. If your truck were to be POWERed by gas instead of diesel or diesel instead of gas it does not suddenly change the properties of the truck. We are trying to compare a gas engine to a diesel engine in the same truck.

Torque will not apply to everything in the same ratio as a truck. If you look at a boat for instance. Even a marine combustion engine can not be compared to a truck with the same engine if you rate the marine engine at the prop and the truck engine at the rear wheels.

If you rate the marine engine at the crank and the truck engine at the crank then they are the same with respect to torque. Especially if you take your engine out of the truck and put it in the boat. In this case it is the same engine therfore it is rated exactly the same at the crank. Now measure it at the prop and it is totally different because the torque to horsepower relationship is different for a prop and a truck. The formula is totally different. As it is also different in a tank.

Now since we know we are talking about combustion engines with the same horsepower, in a truck, POWERed by gas or diesel we can return to normal regularly scheduled programming.

Oh wait, thought I was doing a commercial there for a minute.

So the torque to horsepower relationship is the same now that both trucks have wheels, driveshafts, crankshafts, transmissions, rear ends, and other parts you get on there when you buy your truck.

The horsepower being directly related to rpm and torque we can now decide why a diesel and gas with equal horsepower have a different torque rating.

In order to do this we need to know how this torque can be measured.

To measure torque we can simply attach a brake to the output of both engines.

We can apply pressure to the brake to see how much rotational force can be supplied by these engines
We can measure the force of the engine to see how the engine can turn the crank under this load.

This type of measurement is given in the engine specs as torque.

The engine with the least amount of torque is the engine that produces less force against the brake. So what we have here is a weaker engine.

The engine with the most amount of torque is the engine that produces more force against the brake. So what we have here is a stronger engine.


Now if we take two abrams tanks with the same horsepower, one gas and one diesel...

Oh well, you get the idea.



If you want to compare what someone can move with leverage then I say the stronger person can move more than a weaker person.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
Many times in the past I have used the example of the M1A1 Abrahms tank to explain torque and HP. I have refrained from doing so because there are already quite a few posts in this thread using that example. But, David has continued to show his ignorance by referring to torque as "power" and stating that an engine with higher torque is more powerful than and stronger than an engine with lower torque. Yet, in the example of the Abrahms tank, we have a 70 ton vehicle powered by an engine that develops less than 300 lb-ft of torque. If what David is saying is true, then that tank should not be able to get itself out of its parking space let alone zip across the dessert at 50 mph. So, what gives? Why is that tank able to do the things it can do? Because the engine develops 1500 HP (it's a turbine).

Contrary to David's assertions, though, I do not base everything on HP alone. I have stated repeatedly that there are many factors involved in determining the tow capacity of a vehicle including the transmission, RE ratio, Tires, suspension, etc. HP is just one factor but it is a very important factor. David stated that if you have two vehicles with exactly the same HP but one is a diesel and the other a gasser, the diesel will out pull the gasser up a hill. Without any description of the rest of the vehicle, it is impossible to determine the outcome. You need to know much more about the vehicle to make such a determination.

Another issue about torque that people should consider: Most people on this forum would consider an engine developing over 600 lb-ft of torque to be very powerful. Yet, I can produce over 600 (or 6000) lb-ft of torque with one hand with a long enough snipe. Does that mean that I am more powerful than the engine in my truck? According to David's definition, I certainly am! But we know the truth. Since I am incapable of producing even a fraction of a HP, I am no where near as powerful as the engine in my truck. Otherwise, I would simply hoist my 5er on my back and trott off down the road at 80+ mph and not burn a drop of fuel.

Bert

DavidPhillips
Explorer
Explorer
I agree with Bert on this one.

It is wrong to say all diesels will beat gassers towing a heavy load.


Of course you also need to consider that Bert stated this.

Most people have actually said with other factors being equal.


Given a gasser with more torque than the diesel the same load with the same running gear. Give the gasser the diff ratio that will let it run in the proper rpm range it will out pull the diesel.

If all else is the same and the diesel has more torque it will out pull the gasser with a load.


Bert will disagree and certainly base everything on horsepower.

However, even if someone has no clue what any of the numbers mean they know if one has a higher number for torque rating and the same for horsepower on both they will know there is a power difference in favor of the diesel. The diesel will naturally have the higher torque rating.

If you must be technical about the use of the word then use the word strength. Most people think of power, strength, force as being about the same thing in general. Playing games with numbers and wording does not change the strength of your engine.

Now I know Bert will also disagree with this for one based completely on the fact that I use the word power.

When in fact anyone knows what the word power relates to and while some may confuse the words power and horsepower they also know what power is but may not know what horsepower is.

Having the word horse in it for a very good reason, horsepower is relating the work potential of anything the does work to what the average horse is rated at doing in an hour.

Now we can all use common sense and rationalize that if a horse does a certain amount of work to move a load in an hour the weight it moves needs to be light enough for the horse to actually move the weight.

Simply saying a horse can lift 330 lbs 100 feet in an hour is easy to understand. The horse certainly cannot lift 3300 lbs 10 feet in an hour because it cannot apply enough force to move that heavy of a load. If it could lift that much weight and move it 10 feet then the horsepower would be the same. However we need to lighten the load for the horse.

In the exact same way we also need to lighten the load on the engine so that it can perform the work as it is rated to do in an hour.

Now these plain facts are obviuos and you do not need any special knowledge of horses or cars to realize this is the way it will work. We can all see that if the horse cannot lift the weight it cannot do the work it is rated to do in an hour. We can also understand that if a vehicle is loaded to the point that it cannot pull a load it cannot do the rated work in an hour.


Therefore if both vehicles are pulling this heavy load they will not get the rated work done.

The stronger engine will move faster with the heavy load and get more work done just as the stronger horse will lift more weight and get more of the work done than an overloaded weaker horse.


The strength that we compare in horses and engines is called torque in an engine. The more your rated torque is the more of a load you can move toward the end result of getting more of the rated work done than a weaker engine.

So it is very simple and does not require any formulas or any vast knowledge.

Bigger number of torque rating means a stronger engine.
TV: 1995 C1500 RC LB Silverado 6.5L TD
Transmission: 4L80E, TCI Pan
Differential: 3.42, Mag Hytech Cover
Fluids: Amsoil
Gauges: EGT, Trans and Diff Temp, Boost, Fuel Pressure
Suspension: Rancho RS9000X, Timbrens
Towing: Prodigy, Reese 15K

RV: 07 Wildcat 28RKWB

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
I don't mind being in the minority as long as I am right. In this case, there is no argument. As stated many times, the 8.1 gasser will beat many diesels and keep up with most others. Yes, there are diesels that will beat it in a pull off but to categorically state that diesels will always beat gassers in a pull off is wrong.

Bert

sharker6
Explorer
Explorer
Bert, I'm sure your a great guy but, your in the minority on this one.
2017 Keystone Cougar 29RES, 2008 F250 Diesel FX4

BertP
Explorer
Explorer
sharker6 wrote:
That's strange, half the information on this thread is wrong or has zilch to do with fuel. The whole gambit has been covered from golf carts to tractors. The fact is, with all other things being equal, diesel will out pull gas, for now.
Speaking of incorrect information.....

Bert