Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[DavidPhillips]

I understand that Bert that's why people buy them. Under normal use you would see that it might be right. Is the warranty period the same? Our trucks we have now only came with 36,000 miles.

Yamaha also warrantied their outboard motors that we used for one year for commercial use, but they would not cover our motors because of the way we used them. The first few motors were covered and after that they said we could not get a warranty. When they take thm apart and see that it's completely worn out it's not a warranty issue even though it's only six months old.


I just know that you can push the big block hard enough to damage it. The diesel engines we have used are bullet proof. Something else will break first.


Desrcr, 20 years ago we went through a lot more motors than we do now. The gas motors were junk then too. It was not even good for 100,000 miles. There are a lot of people who go through a truck pretty quick and some of them have found that a diesel engine holds up better.

Construction is not really as hard on a truck as taking it off road. Off road all day 7 days a week you will find a weekness. We have had a few of our trucks in the shop already for overheating and they are only a year old. I don't see them making 200,000 miles. They start using oil pretty bad before they get that many miles.

Now if you had a good driver he might be able to baby one into lasting that long. We have not had any drivers like that lately.


It seems to me that maybe you have a V10 and don't like what I said about them. Maybe they are better now than they were when we used them. I can't see how you can save money with a V10 over a diesel. So therefore I think they are mainly for people that just don't want a diesel engine. There are a lot of people that feel this way about a diesel engine. They seem to have forgotten how thirty years ago the old gassers would blow an engine every 60,000 miles.


I guess I could be making it up just to fuel the fire but since you have no claims of your own why should anyone care what you think?

[desrcr]

Davidphilips is the only guy who works his truck hard........now I see.
What did big construction companies do 20 yrs ago? When deisels in light trucks were junk.........?
I make no preference, I just think your claims are bull****.
Judging by the amount of old trucks still in use, they are both used up after 200k

[BertP]

David, this isn't me or anyone else making some unsubstantiated claim. GM rates the DMax and 8.1 with the same life expectancy and - in some versions - with the same tow rating.

Bert

[DavidPhillips]

You must be full of it, if you can't do anything but deny what everyone is saying without offering anything for yourself.


Your confusing two different posters.

We have mostly chevy gassers where I work now.

I don't know anything about cement pits but I can tell you were we tested some trucks.


Padre Island we did parts of a job from Redfish Bay to Mexico. Hauling a very heavy load was not involved.

Padre Island

The last time I was there we completed a phase that went down about 50 miles south of the end of the road from Padre Island down the beach on the Gulf side.

By the time we made it down that far there was only one kind of truck we could get there with.

Dodge cummins with manual transmission.

All ford PSD engines never gave a problem but the auto transmissions would not make it without burning up. The manual transmission fords burned too many clutches.

All gas engines ran hot and could not be used to get anywhere near the destination.

Since it's a refuge there are restrictions as to types of vehicles. We had a LARC but it was not allowed on the refuge. No vehicles were allowed to be left overnight because they would be taken and used by drug smugglers.

If you had to stop to cool off your truck you could not make it in time. If you got caught by the high tide the water came up to the sand dunes and your truck would be gone.

We had one Ford that broke a front wheel drive and got stuck while no one else was working. A wrecker was able to get it out but it cost $4200. It was not even halfway down the beach.


The point is anyone that has worked a truck before knows that a gas engine will not compare to a diesel. You guys that think it will have not worked a truck very hard.


I'm sure they are fine for what your doing but that's not the point I was making.


Bert I'm sure if you take care of it a gasser will last 200,000 miles. It never will come close to that when you work it like some people work their trucks. They don't do it just for kicks, they need to get a job done. They would not let us on the refuge with our Abrams tank.



If the work opens up on the island again I'll give you guys a permit and you can come down and test your big block gasser 4x4's if you have the tires for it.

[BertP]

DavidPhillips wrote:
RPM is directly related to worn pistons, rings, bushings, bearings, and other wear items inside a motor no matter what fuel powers it.

But, it is not the only thing related to engine wear.

DavidPhillips wrote:
If you drive a gas powered vehicle at 1800 rpm and another one at 4200 rpm which one will last longer?

Depends entirely upon how each of them is manufactured. The 4200 rpm engine could easily be designed and built to outlast the 1800 rpm engine.

DavidPhillips wrote:
The lower rpm one will last a lot longer. Therefore if you are geared for heavy towing at high rpm naturally the motor will not last as long.

Far too simplistic to be seriously considered.

DavidPhillips wrote:
A diesel motor with 200,000 miles on it will still have the original honing scratches in the cylinder walls.

Horse feathers. A diesel engine with 200,000 miles on it could be just as close to its intended life span as a gasser with 200,000 miles on it. GM rates both the DMax and 8.1 engines as 200,000 mile engines.

Bert

[desrcr]

I live within minutes of four open pit cement and gravel outfits(Mitsubishi being the biggest)and yes I know many people who have or do work in them.
Vehicles of size you mention are used for maintenance of heavier vehicles.
I like to know why your company is using f-series trucks haul heavy loads when there should be more suitable vehicles on site.
I still think your full of it.

[hone_eagle]

desrcr wrote:

DavidPhillips wrote:
Bottom line is the gasser needs to turn more rpms to get the power output. This is going to mean it wears out sooner than the diesel with equal power running at lower rpms.

This also somewhat accounts for the fuel consumption.

We use a lot of large block gasser 1 ton trucks and rarely see them last much more than 100,000 miles before the engine is worn out.

Had some V10 fords and they lasted about 80,000 miles.

I never saw a single PSD wear out, only blown transmissions on them.

This is absolute rubbish, I think your full of it.

You have never been near a open pit mine of any kind have you?

[DavidPhillips]

Which part of it is rubbish. As far as I'm concerned it's fact.


RPM is directly related to worn pistons, rings, bushings, bearings, and other wear items inside a motor no matter what fuel powers it.

If you drive a gas powered vehicle at 1800 rpm and another one at 4200 rpm which one will last longer?

The lower rpm one will last a lot longer. Therefore if you are geared for heavy towing at high rpm naturally the motor will not last as long.

Heat is also one of the major factors in how long an engine can hold up.

A diesel motor with 200,000 miles on it will still have the original honing scratches in the cylinder walls.

As far as how long the gas engines lasted, I'm just saying what I have seen to be true.

However all of the V10's were in vans which may be a heat issue. I would never get a V10 based on everyone I have had replaced, and what it cost to replace it. Ask a Ford mechanic and they will tell you real fast, they run hot.

Our one ton trucks get run hard, lot of it is off road. We consider 100,000 miles or two years use to be about average.

Currently using 05's and 06's which may be better than the earlier models but it's too soon to tell.

The best gas powered truck we have would be the 04 6.0L 2500 HD. Still runs like new at 150,000 miles. They do not get near the use of the one tons. Too bad it's being retired based on what the other vehicle life expectancy is. I think it would go another 100,000.

We don't use Diesels in our daily driver where I work now but were I used to work they only had PSD no more than 2 years old. Never had a bad motor in any of those trucks. We did rebuild a lot of transmissions though.

After 2 years they were pretty much rusted out anyway even though we washed them everyday.

You could completely burn out a transmission in 15 minutes in the 98 to 2000 model PSD's if you run it too hard. They got hot and blew out the seal.

[desrcr]

DavidPhillips wrote:
Bottom line is the gasser needs to turn more rpms to get the power output. This is going to mean it wears out sooner than the diesel with equal power running at lower rpms.

This also somewhat accounts for the fuel consumption.

We use a lot of large block gasser 1 ton trucks and rarely see them last much more than 100,000 miles before the engine is worn out.

Had some V10 fords and they lasted about 80,000 miles.

I never saw a single PSD wear out, only blown transmissions on them.

This is absolute rubbish, I think your full of it.

[hone_eagle]

Wintercamper wrote:
The heat dissipation of a turbo gasser is a concern agreed, but not impossible to solve.

The point is that a turbo gasser NEVER needs to work on max Hp when towing, remember 600+ Hp, also in the mountains.


BR//

Your sig is sweden,are you really from europe?That explains your misconception that a TV engine needs to NEVER work at its max.In north america and the USA the roads go to the tops of mountains as a matter of course,you could have a thread on how many mountain tops you've been to ,pike's peak.mt. evans etc. over seas from what I've seen you park at the bottom and cable car up or drive through a tunnel.Many drivers also have no mechanical empathy and WILL hold full throttle with a massive trailer in tow for as long as it takes to get to the top, sometimes 20 minutes or more, so the manufactures build accordingly.
Can a gasser do it? sure no problem, if designed with the task in mind.Take for instance if the design change from a current BB calls for a increase of main bearing area of 10% not much?Well this would require a complete change of the automation(part handling) in the engine plant and a lot of new bottom end machine tools ,remember this tooling is single task and big buck, real close to the 'B' word in dollars, how big is the market? The current diesels in domestic trucks are out sourced as it is.
So sure a gasser can be made to do the work of a diesel for as long as a diesel, but if costs as much or more than a diesel option would enough people buy them?
just ramblings of a retired engine plant worker(33 years)

[DavidPhillips]

Bottom line is the gasser needs to turn more rpms to get the power output. This is going to mean it wears out sooner than the diesel with equal power running at lower rpms.

This also somewhat accounts for the fuel consumption.

We use a lot of large block gasser 1 ton trucks and rarely see them last much more than 100,000 miles before the engine is worn out.

Had some V10 fords and they lasted about 80,000 miles.

I never saw a single PSD wear out, only blown transmissions on them.

[Wintercamper]

The heat dissipation of a turbo gasser is a concern agreed, but not impossible to solve.

The point is that a turbo gasser NEVER needs to work on max Hp when towing, remember 600+ Hp, also in the mountains.


BR//

[BertP]

You are correct, Ralf, that the large air cooled aircraft engines of WWII also used their fuel to cool them, but to lable all gassers as incapable of sustained output is not accurate. For that matter, the only vehicle GM has had in the last few years with a cooling problem has been their diesel ('05 LLY). There are a number of gassers that will pull a heavy load all day long for years without a problem. For that matter, the 8.1 gasser and DMax have had the same tow rating for a number of years. That has changed with the LBZ because of its higher HP, but the 8.1 isn't far behind it.

Bert

[aggiefarmer]

Diesel all the way.

[hone_eagle]

All the extra fuel burn is that much more heat to remove /radiate? not to say it cant be done but the more fuel burnt the tougher job it becomes. Many examples of big powerful gas power plants that put out sustained power such as wwII aircraft engines exist but I remember reading that they needed the evaporation of the massive gas flow to help cooling along with the 300mph airflow.Iam just thinking out loud that sustained max output of a turbo gasser is not worth it or it would be done already,since it would be cheaper,lighter.It may be as simple as not having enough room for all the coolers needed.