Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[richfaa]

Pulled the very same Montana with a 05 V=10 and now a 08 6.4L diesel. Both trucks nearly the same configuration. The 05 gas was a 4:30 diff. The 08 is a 4:10 diff and 4X4. So I have pulled with both and can comment on the difference. The V10 was weak on the steep hills..pulled them but weak. Not so with the 6.4 diesel.. The difference in MPG is not IMO a huge consideration
7/8 pulling with the V-10..10/11 with the 6.4///V-10 solo 12..6,4 15/17. No trouble whatsoever with the V-10 34K miles...No trouble whatsoever with the 6.4 33,000 miles, They are both good motors but it is not fair to compare them.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Marty, more than half of the descendents of the mother of my wife's maternal great-grandmother are twins. Our daugther is doomed as it is the second most common twin pattern of "Twins don't have twins but their sisters do."

[blt2ski]

You have the twins issue eh! I'm sorry, i really am! have you had to deal with the runs and 500 diapers in one week yet? Mine were about 9 months when that happened. They are now 25!LOL

Sounds like you are ok to a point. I am thinking a 15 passenger van is abit shorter than a CC long box or even a SB truck. But do not trust me, check the actual measurements.

Have fun shopping!

Marty

[Tom_Holsinger]

Marty, I built my house in 1983 so the garage could hold an extra-long full-height church van on one side. The garage door is 8' high. We were worried that my wife would be like her maternal grandmother and great-grandmother in having 2-3 sets of twins instead of only one set like her mother. We can fit an F-350 or Ram 3500 in the garage and still have room for a mid-size sedan.

[blt2ski]

Now the question becomes, how long is your garage? I can not fit anything but a reg cab length truck, ie 19.5' max length in my garage, so even an ext cab short 6' box truck will not fit, and my crewcab long 8' box will be upwards of 4' too long! Not to say a 35 will or will not fit, you need to look at the length of the thing, along with height an width. I could fit your camry width wise and my dually's fat arse in my garage with out too many issues, and it only a 20x20. bare minimum double garage. Length kills me, along with the ladder/lunber rack kills me in height.

Then again, being in construction, I think the last time I washed my truck was 3 yrs ago, other than the rain we get here in Seattle. My trucks are tools, not a toy like many folks use them.

Marty

[Tom_Holsinger]

Marty, I'll think about it. I had earlier decided on nothing larger than the 350/3500 series, because I can fit either in my garage with my treasured 2002 Camry XLE (well broken in with 120,000 miles averaging 30.08 mpg). Now that I've decided to simply store a tow vehicle with my RV, it doesn't need to fit in my garage.

Thanks for reminding me that I have more options in a tow vehicle.

[blt2ski]

Another option on a softer ride, is Gm has the 4500/5500 series with some rv bodies that have an air suspension, along with air ride seats. Some of the loprofile navistart and Freightliners also have these options. These are smooth riding son of a guns!

Also, GCWR is NOT a legal limit to what you can pull. What you really need to look at is the payload of the truck over GCWR. I have had no issues when pullin gover gcwr but under axel wt ratings, where as when under gcwr but over an axel rating, I have problems with the setup.

As far as ride goes, my dually GM is plenty soft, yet can handle the wts you are talking about too. I know of someone pulling upwards into the mid 40K range with a GM 4500, gcwr rating is 26K. I've pulled over 26K with my gm, no issues either. The 3500's like mine have a 23500 rating. The newer 4500/5500's get into the low 30K range, 33K IIRC.

There are plenty of options if you really look around for what you want to do. While the bigger rigs, ie Navistar look bigger, they turn quicker than the 35 series rigs with equal WB's, my 188" navistar can out turn my old 155" WB GM ext cab, imagine how much quicker it is vs my 172" GM! Along with you sit higher, can see farther ahead of you etc, with air suspension.......cats meow!

Marty

[Tom_Holsinger]

TexasBorn,

You might be right about rides of the F-250 vs. F-350 dually. The Edmunds review said the 2007-2008 Dodge 3500 dually had a much harsher ride than the 2007-2008 2500, due to a heavier suspension, and I just assumed that was true for Fords too.

But the 2007-2008 Dodge 3500 duallies have a 1000 pound higher GCVWR than the 2007-2008 F-350 duallies, and the Fords tend to be heavier, i.e., the Dodges have about a 1500-2000 pound tow advantage over the Fords. This is important because I intend to keep my existing tow vehicle when I retire while trading in a mid-size 5th wheel for a full-size one. I'll need the Dodge's higher towing capacity, and the Cummins diesel of the 2007-2008 Dodge 3500's is signficantly better than the 2007-2008 Ford F-350's.

I will, however, test-drive both the F-350 and Ram 3500 in my price range when I'm ready to buy. My wife has a say in this, and I have a generating spinal disk which might require a less harsh ride in 18 months. I might well bless you for reminding me of the Ford's softer ride when I start RV'ing.

[TexasBorn]

Tom Holsinger wrote:
The major problem with any 350/3500 series truck is that they inherently have a much harsher ride than the 250/2500 series

This is not true. Atleast with the Fords. I went from a F250 to a F350 DRW and did not notice any change in the ride.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Marty,

I disagree somewhat. I expect the economy to fall off a cliff next year. We had net disinvestment in our capital stock last year, for the first time since the Great Depression and the end of World War Two. See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704164904575421403221676016.html

"... the capital stock—the inflation-adjusted value of all business equipment and software in place in the U.S.—dropped 0.9% from 2008—its first decline since World War II."

That disinvestment hasn't changed a bit this year. I was aware of it last year and predicted how saggy it would make the economy this year. But throw in the effects of next year's massive tax increases and the Obama administration will have turned a recession into a full-bore depression. It won't be a mere double-dip recession. Real unemployment will jump to over 20%.

I'll start looking in December 2011 for a 2007 or 2008 Dodge Ram 3500 dually with the 6.7 liter Cummins diesel engine. I can have its transmission reset to a 4.10 if it doesn't come with that. I believe a fair number of those were sold then because that was just before the recession hit, and the 6.7 liter Cummins was revolutionary and very popular.

[blt2ski]

Tom,

If you can swing it, trying to find one over the next 6-12 months would be worth doing too, as you could probably find better deals now, than then frankly. I've been seeing homes at lows I have not seen in over 20-25 yrs around here, vehicles to a degree are probably going to be easy to find good used ones down the road too. Not sure depending upon when you decide to look in 2 yrs, how old you want to look then, that there will be too many used rigs in the 2-4 yr range, and being as there will be few, going on new truck sales over the last yr or so, and if it goes forward another yr or so, you might be in the bet quanitity used market right now. Then again, that would be my swag on how things look. I'd start the hunt sooner than later if it were me.

Marty

[Tom_Holsinger]

Marty, that's about how I see it now. Get a used 3500 diesel dually in early 2012 in the $25,000 - $30,000 range, put some money into whatever it needs, use it only for 6-7 weeks of vacation annually until I retire, then trade in the smaller 5th wheel for a full-sized one and start adding serious RV milage with the same truck.

[blt2ski]

If that is the case, I would not bother buying a new rig, find a sweet used one with 50-100K miles on it, you will never use it enough to worry about the cost difference. And if something breaks, so be it! you have ore than save that in the depreciation the day you took the new rig off the lot. So start hunting the used lot, or keep ears open for some one that needs the payments taken over due to job loss or equal. A new one may not be what you want or need.

Marty

[Tom_Holsinger]

My wife, who teaches high school science, says I am a friggin' optimist about her commute. It's 16 full stops on her 30-minute, 19-mile one-way daily commute, six of them just to get out of town, and that she hits 55-60 mph exactly twice for about 60-90 seconds each during that time. She swears that little baby dinosaurs will be pouring out the tailpipe, that the mpg will be that of a heavy tracked vehicle (gallons per mile), and that her diesel particulate emissions will rival those of a Chinese peat-fired power plant.

My 12.5 mile, 22-minute daily commute would barely warm up a big diesel and, while 8 miles of it is freeway, requires 14 full stops including the same six just to get out of town.

It looks more and more like we'd be better off keeping the car we'd trade in for a tow vehicle, and just store the tow vehicle in the 45-week off season, while taking it out for an hour on the freeway every other week then. That would result in more than half its 4500+ annual pre-retirement milage being diesel happy time towing an RV on the freeway.

[Jarlaxle]

RFOneWatt wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:

If you are going to be using the vehicle as a daily driver, and need to tow (safely) I'd go with a V10 F250. The 5.4 isn't going to cut it at all.

Preposterous. A 5.4 will tow 13,000lbs just as SAFELY as a V10. It won't tow it as fast, but it will tow it. I'd get the 5.4 V8, 6-speed manual, and 4.10 or (if available) 4.30 gears. I'll deal with 5-10MPH slower on hills and burn less gas commuting. I would not own a new diesel if you gave it to me.

Sigh. In the mountains, with that kind of weight a V10 might even have some limitations but I'm sure it would be very capable. (I only say this because I've never driven a V10.) Obviously a diesel will do it effortlessly.

A 5.4 would barely do it, but yeah, you're right - It would probably do it slowly for about 50,000-60,000 miles before it blew up. Of course you'd be going VERY slow, struggling, and stopping often. No doubt about it. Been there, done that. Go ahead and take a look at the videos I posted of my 5.4 in the mountains of Wyoming and Utah. That truck only had 6000 miles on it. Granted it was an Expedition with an automatic transmission but it was properly equipped and loaded. I was only pulling about 7000LB's though.

Apples and rutabegas. Your mall-terrain station wagon (with tall gears and a car transmission) and an F-350 (with 6-speed manual or 5-speed slushbox, 3-valve engine, and deep axle gearing) is no comparison. A 5.4 is an easy 300,000+ miler with even minimal maintainence.

It just depends on how many creature comforts you are willing to give up and how much of a safety margin you feel comfortable with.

Me? I like using my air conditioning and having an automatic transmission when I'm in 90-100+ degree weather trying to negotiate mountain passes and switchbacks with semis & inexperienced RV'ers barelling down behind and around me. I also like (need) my 4WD which you'd also likely have to give up in order to try and make a 5.4 tow that much legally. I like keeping my wife (and eventual children) as comfortable and safe as possible. It pays off in the end.

So run the A/C. So spoil a nice truck with a slushpump. So get a 4x4. (I won't own a 2WD tow hehicle.) So what? If you have to run WOT for a while up some grades...then you do it. So be it, it won't hurt anything.

Of course, a 5.4 truck will have a HIGHER payload than a V10...the GVWR is the same, the engine is lighter.

Sorry, but I like my wiggle room and I don't like pushing my vehicle to its limits (and worrying about it) continuously. When I go on a trip I go on it to RELAX.. Getting there is 1/2 the fun and to spend that time struggling and worrying ISN'T. I like to eliminate as much worry from my life as possible, especially on vacation.

IMO the best vehicle for Tom is something with a V10. If there was no daily commuting involved I would say get the diesel FOR SURE.

If there were no commuting involved, absolutely: go V10. Since there is...go 5.4 and pocket the gas savings.

Or he can do what I do.. I drive an old Focus with 130k on it for daily commuting and just use my truck for towing and long trips. I plan on keeping my truck for a long, long time.

As for your comment about not towing with a newer diesel vehicle -- well, you've obviously never done it. Aside from the emissions BS the new Ford (so far - only time will tell), GM and Chrysler diesel TV's are simply awesome.

The emission junk is EXACTLY the reason. The MPG advantage is pretty much gone, the new urine-injection engines are unproven, and nobody knows what they'll do. I do know (directly from a fleet mechanic) that his are a disaster. Considering that the F-350 offers two proven engines that are easy 300,000+ milers and one totally-new, totally-unproven engine, which is a replacement for two that were disasters...nope, I'll pass on beta-testing the new diesel.