EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks

[thomas201]

So much wheel spinning on EVs, what if they are not the right path forward? The biggest problem with renewable power and EVs is storage, the second is storage, and the third is storage. Another path is carbon capture from the atmosphere (using amine scrubbing like nuclear subs and carbon dioxide from natural gas) then splitting hydrogen from water, followed by building whatever hydrocarbon you need.

The US Navy is hard at work on this project, since it avoids storage of large amounts of jet fuel, and the difficult job of resupply of jet fuel at sea to the carriers. After all fire kills ships. The Fords were built with a very large excess electric generation capacity for this reason and many others.

Porsche now has a pilot project running in South America, Porsche syn fuel

This will work wherever you have cheap electricity and water. The products are put right into refinery feeds. No need to rebuild the approximately 1.5 Billion cars in the world. Solves storage, no worry about hydrogen embrittlement, recycles carbon dioxide, we use the existing liquid fuel distribution system. Transparent to the car/truck owner.

[ppine]

I see no plan or intent to replace gas engines with EVs. Okay maybe in California. EVs are a tool in the tool box. They seem best suited for commuter vehicles in urban environments. Now there are conversion kits to power classic cars and sports cars with electric motors. EVs may just be a stepping stone to hydrogen powered cars or the next tech after that.

Diesel engines deserve some special mention, but don't seem to get much appreciation in the US by law makers. In Europe over half the cars run on diesel. All of the trucks. There are diesel lawn mowers and outboard motors most places outside the US. Diesel can be converted to hydrogen. They can run on peanut oil, waste cooking oil, fuel from algae and fuel from wood. Diesel tech will be around for a long time.

We are likely to have a mix of power sources for transportation for the next 20 years or so until one stands out and gets promoted by the government.

[propchef]

thomas201 wrote:
Easy, we build about 80 million vehicles a year, but far and away they are internal combustion. Your task is to convert every facility in the world to EV production right now. It will take a long time, remember production heck, when Tesla started production?

Ideas are great, but real genius is putting something is every home on the planet, at a reasonable price. Large parts of Africa still do not have electricity. Maybe Asia? I haven't traveled there, but you can get a Hilux fixed by a mechanic in a mud hut in Africa.

If they don't have electricity, how can they fix a truck in a mud hut?

BTW, large parts of the US still don't have electricity. Ask the Navajo Nation. #themoreyouknow

Conversion won't happen overnight but we're past the event horizon for EVs and EV production will only grow from here.

Tesla took over the NUMMI plant from Toyota and converted it to EV production. It's now the biggest car factory in the US, making more cars than Toyota ever did. The biggest hurdles they faced were regulatory and union issues. Logistically it wasn't that hard.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/11/tesla-produces-more-cars-fremont-factory-than-gm-toyota/

The BMW plant in SC is another great example. Hybrids and conventional ICE vehicles are made in the same plant, and BMW even makes the batteries there.

[time2roll]

d1h wrote:
Ahh, the good old days.

Yes at less than 10 cents people complained about the gas back then too. Good pay was $5 for a 12 hour shift.

[free_radical]

thomas201 wrote:
Easy, we build about 80 million vehicles a year, but far and away they are internal combustion. Your task is to convert every facility in the world to EV production right now. It will take a long time, remember production heck, when Tesla started production?

Ideas are great, but real genius is putting something is every home on the planet, at a reasonable price. Large parts of Africa still do not have electricity. Maybe Asia? I haven't traveled there, but you can get a Hilux fixed by a mechanic in a mud hut in Africa.

Never been to Asia ? You like shoping? Heres a good place to visit

https://youtu.be/n0Q-l9WIGjU


If we dont do enough evs someone else will

https://youtu.be/q5GGCVIEYts

[d1h]

Ahh, the good old days.

[stsmark]

Grit dog wrote:
@benny37, I have to laugh. I understand fully what body panel alignment is as well.
The funny part is while I’ve never driven a Tesla, you can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting (seeing) one.
I have never once looked at one and thought, ugh that door gap is something only a mother could love….
Idk, pretty weak argument imo.
Coming from someone like me who’s decidedly pro dead dinosaurs vehicles, if one has to say stupid things to try to support their decision or argument, it’s time to pick another fight….

Grit agreed, I live in Tesla heaven, CA Wine Country. On a daily basis I see more of them now than say Camrys. In my neighborhood of 220 homes there are at least a dozen now 80% Model Ys.
There is a 12 stall Supercharger in the shopping center right outside the entrance to our development. Average 4 cars there at a time. There is no towing accessible stall so that will be entertaining when it comes about. I can’t recall ever seeing a Tesla towing anything around here though. Being a manual wheelchair user I thought it was cool they have an Accessible stall. The bummer is I have never seen a more cheated spot.
I was 40 year Maintenance Tech on Bizjets so I have a good eye for detail and I think the panel gap deal is over blown. Maybe early on.
I will say the only Tesla I’ve ever seen on a tow truck was Model X with one of the Falcon doors half open.

[thomas201]

Easy, we build about 80 million vehicles a year, but far and away they are internal combustion. Your task is to convert every facility in the world to EV production right now. It will take a long time, remember production heck, when Tesla started production?

Ideas are great, but real genius is putting something is every home on the planet, at a reasonable price. Large parts of Africa still do not have electricity. Maybe Asia? I haven't traveled there, but you can get a Hilux fixed by a mechanic in a mud hut in Africa.

[time2roll]

thomas201 wrote:
Next there are almost 1.5 billion motor vehicles in the world, Tesla made 1.37 million last year. So, just over 1,000 years to go. So, if dropping carbon dioxide is your goal, then you will not achieve it by producing cars, that front load the carbon dioxide. Numbers range from 5 to 8 years to pay out an EV on carbon dioxide. Not to mention the greenhouse gas production from the infrastructure.

Just an engineer playing with the numbers. You must look at the entire system, not just one part (car). Better to make a fuel from atmospheric or industrial waste carbon dioxide, with renewable energy, than build a billion cars/trucks, plus powerlines and power plants and charging stations. Just an estimated opinion. Replacing the existing thing is really a monumental job, underestimated by most who discuss the subject.

Replacement is in progress no matter the fuel.

And besides how on earth did we build that 1.5 billion in only the past 120 years? Surely we are better at it today than even 50 years ago.

[thomas201]

GM spending $854 million on V-8, and $64 million on EV.

GM investment

Next there are almost 1.5 billion motor vehicles in the world, Tesla made 1.37 million last year. So, just over 1,000 years to go. So, if dropping carbon dioxide is your goal, then you will not achieve it by producing cars, that front load the carbon dioxide. Numbers range from 5 to 8 years to pay out an EV on carbon dioxide. Not to mention the greenhouse gas production from the infrastructure.

Just an engineer playing with the numbers. You must look at the entire system, not just one part (car). Better to make a fuel from atmospheric or industrial waste carbon dioxide, with renewable energy, than build a billion cars/trucks, plus powerlines and power plants and charging stations. Just an estimated opinion. Replacing the existing thing is really a monumental job, underestimated by most who discuss the subject.

[map40]

thomas201 wrote:
I am the OP. I just read through the entire thread again. You still haven't convinced me that you can replace all vehicles with electric or hydrogen, then rebuild the entire infrastructure system converting natural gas to hydrogen or building the new electric transmission lines for less money than onsite production of hydrocarbons as a refinery feedstock at renewable energy facilities.

I think with both hydrogen and EV's, the cost of fleet replacement and building the support infrastructure are vastly under estimated. My way, you pay as you go. It is invisible to the consumer.

Nobody will be able to because it is not possible with the current technology at this time in the current technology development path. EVs are great for commuting and city traffic, but they fail with heavy load and long trips (which makes them quite difficult to use towing a trailer or fifth wheel).
Hydrogen is a great technology, but the only cost effective technology is direct sea water extraction and there is no solution for distribution in place yet, so we are looking between 10 to 20 years at best.
To your original question, from a person familiar with EVs and Hydrogen technology (and a long time owner of both), neither technology can replace ICEs today for the RVs application in most cases.
Now, if you have a very light trailer and are willing to put up with the charging, there are really good EVs that could work (some postings have actually shown). Besides that, Not currently available on my point of view.
(And as I normally say, my point of view is my pocket and my convenience; I will use any technology that is cheaper to own and as convenient for me than the alternatives)

[Lantley]

thomas201 wrote:
I am the OP. I just read through the entire thread again. You still haven't convinced me that you can replace all vehicles with electric or hydrogen, then rebuild the entire infrastructure system converting natural gas to hydrogen or building the new electric transmission lines for less money than onsite production of hydrocarbons as a refinery feedstock at renewable energy facilities.

I think with both hydrogen and EV's, the cost of fleet replacement and building the support infrastructure are vastly under estimated. My way, you pay as you go. It is invisible to the consumer.

We sort of touch on this somewhere along the way already.
Tesla took EV from the drawing board to reality overnight.
Mainstream manufactures were focus on building EV commuter economy boxes when Tesla left them in the dust.
Tesla built there own car distribution network including nationwide charging stations just to show it could be done.
The efficiency of the Tesla has led other manufactures to drop their ICE cars altogether.
Once again we want to blur the lines with storage , the power grid, and infrastructure issues. You don't have to be an aviation genius to understand when the Wright Brothers built their first plane there was no airports, pilots, runways, guidance ,systems, radar or FAA.
Somehow we got it done. EV infrastructure is a challenge that will take time and $$.But its not an insurmountable problem

[Lantley]

Reisender wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Body panel alignment has never been a criteria for a car purchase for me.
Most of the general public won't understand or even notice what you are referring to.
I may pay closer attention on a used car in an effort to look for possible accident damage but otherwise who cares on a new car.
You see lots of Teslas on the road. They have taken huge market share from BMW and Mercedes.
For better or worse at the end of the day the public is interested in Tesla's game changing innovation and could care less about body panel alignment.

Yah. We have had two teslas. A 3 and a Y. The quality on both was better than our Gesnd Cherokee. We have had two minor issues in three years. A camera alignment and a rear seat that didn’t fold down smoothly when the button was pressed. In both cases the service was done by tesla at our house. I have never had any manufacturer do that. Getting an appointment for the Jeep was always weeks away. Tesla was less than a week in both cases and it was all done on the app. Happy customers.

More of the game changing approach that has left the competition flat footed. Has anyone heard of the big three or any mainstream manufacturer sending techs to do home repairs via an app!

[Grit_dog]

@benny37, I have to laugh. I understand fully what body panel alignment is as well.
The funny part is while I’ve never driven a Tesla, you can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting (seeing) one.
I have never once looked at one and thought, ugh that door gap is something only a mother could love….
Idk, pretty weak argument imo.
Coming from someone like me who’s decidedly pro dead dinosaurs vehicles, if one has to say stupid things to try to support their decision or argument, it’s time to pick another fight….

[thomas201]

I am the OP. I just read through the entire thread again. You still haven't convinced me that you can replace all vehicles with electric or hydrogen, then rebuild the entire infrastructure system converting natural gas to hydrogen or building the new electric transmission lines for less money than onsite production of hydrocarbons as a refinery feedstock at renewable energy facilities.

I think with both hydrogen and EV's, the cost of fleet replacement and building the support infrastructure are vastly under estimated. My way, you pay as you go. It is invisible to the consumer.

[Reisender]

Lantley wrote:
Body panel alignment has never been a criteria for a car purchase for me.
Most of the general public won't understand or even notice what you are referring to.
I may pay closer attention on a used car in an effort to look for possible accident damage but otherwise who cares on a new car.
You see lots of Teslas on the road. They have taken huge market share from BMW and Mercedes.
For better or worse at the end of the day the public is interested in Tesla's game changing innovation and could care less about body panel alignment.

Yah. We have had two teslas. A 3 and a Y. The quality on both was better than our Gesnd Cherokee. We have had two minor issues in three years. A camera alignment and a rear seat that didn’t fold down smoothly when the button was pressed. In both cases the service was done by tesla at our house. I have never had any manufacturer do that. Getting an appointment for the Jeep was always weeks away. Tesla was less than a week in both cases and it was all done on the app. Happy customers.