The following is from a paper I sent to the President of Lance Camper on January 15th of 2014. I have received no response of any kind from Lance and now feel it is appropriate to post this to the various Camper forums so that the consumers of their products are informed of what I consider to be a serious safety issue with the Lance 855/855S camper.
I would like to preface this post by saying that I have never taken the time to bring a product safety issue to the attention of a manufacturer before. I do so now as I am genuinely concerned about this. I don't just point out problems, I also make detailed suggestions on how to fix them. I do not seek any form of compensation. I do want Lance to respond to my claims.
I openly acknowledge that I have used a couple of pictures posted by another contributor to this forum who goes by the user name "skipro3" and I reference his post with a hyperlink in the document that I sent to Lance and in this post. I use his pictures as I had already repaired my camper before I got fired up enough to document my concerns and take any pictures of my own.
Please note that I don't use a fictitious user name on this forum, or any forum, as I believe in transparency.
Following is the content of the paper I sent to Lance.
Introduction
I recently purchased a Lance 855S camper. Most everything about the camper is excellent except the layout of the battery compartment. There are a number of issues about the battery compartment that I feel are worth documenting and are the reason I took the time to write this paper. In this paper I use 855 and 855S interchangeably as the battery compartments appear to be the same for both products.
First, let me say that I am an electrical engineer and I know that in any system design as complex as an RV, tradeoffs have to be made. An RV is essentially a small house that travels down the road. It is a significant design challenge and I have some appreciation for the kinds of tradeoffs that have to be made to satisfy all of the product requirements. That said, safety can never be compromised and the ability to access and service high-maintenance components of the RV should be high on the prioritized list of requirements.
When I look at the 855S as a whole, I see a great product in terms of comfort, features, and build quality, all in a light-weight package. I also see the following limitations which are no doubt tradeoffs due to weight and size requirements: limited outside accessible storage, relatively small holding tanks, and 20-lb propane bottles instead of 30-lb bottles. Another apparent tradeoff is the battery compartment. It must be a tradeoff as it is only accessible from the inside and is stuffed with so much other equipment that it makes access to the batteries extremely difficult. In addition, the batteries are in the same small compartment as the AC-to-DC converter which poses a safety hazard. I can get along with the other tradeoffs but the layout of the battery compartment and poor access to the batteries is so bad I feel compelled to document it. I discuss my perception of the safety and maintenance issues in separate sections of this paper.
Safety
Placing the batteries in the same small compartment as an AC-to-DC converter that makes the following statement in its installation manual is reckless and a product liability issue:
โUnit is NOT ignition protected. Do not mount in the LP gas or the battery compartment.โ
I am not making this up, see the outlined text of the scanned page from the PD4000 Power Control Center installation manual shown in Figure 1.
Figure 1: Scanned image of PD4000 Power Control Center installation manual.
Yes, the batteries are in battery boxes that are vented to the outside and I assume your engineers felt that was sufficient to prevent an accumulation of hydrogen gas in the compartment. I, however, do not agree. Here are some things to consider:
Figure 2: Close up of gaping hole in one battery cover. Safe?
Figure 3: View showing battery boxes in the same compartment as AC-to-DC converter and forward facing vents.
For more details and more photos of this ownerโs experience, refer to the following post on the RV.net forum:
Wiring issues with my 2012 Lance 855S
My dealer did an equally poor job but in different ways. The holes in the battery covers were not huge slots like those in the previous photos; instead, the holes were not quite big enough to accommodate the rubber grommets so they simply left the grommets off which resulted in a wide gap between the cable and the hole in the cover โ more than enough for gas to leak from. In addition, the lugs on the battery cables were so poorly crimped that several of them literally fell off when I attempted to reconnect them. Furthermore, the cables were made from #2 AWG house wire which is very stiff and difficult to work with and the cables were about three feet too long. Needless to say I threw those cables overboard and built new ones from fine-strand #2 automotive cable, cut to length, with soldered-on lugs.
Even if the battery covers are not molested by the dealer, they are poorly sealed at the junction between the top and bottom portion of the clamshell. From the experience of the owner who wrote the forum post and from my own experience, the dealers are having a difficult time installing all the screws that hold the clamshells together due to the cramped quarters. In particular the screws on the far right side of the right-hand battery box are nearly impossible to get to. Try as I might, I was not able to get one of those two screws installed.
But then, you might think to yourself that hydrogen gas is lighter than air and will therefore travel up and out the top of the battery box through the vent tube and it doesnโt matter that screws are missing and the clamshells donโt seal well. Right? Maybe not . . . consider the following sequence of events which I submit are a typical usage scenario of a truck camper and will possibly results in an explosion or fire:
Unless I am way off in my reasoning, this is a significant product liability issue and needs to be taken very seriously. This is especially true when you consider how badly the battery covers are being molested by some dealers.
As I see it, there are several things that can be done to help mitigate this problem. Here are some of the things I have thought of.
AGM batteries pre-installed and pre-wired from the factory is likely the easiest solution. It is my understanding that AGM batteries have zero maintenance which would help with the issues I raise in the Maintenance section. It is also my understanding that AGM batteries out-gas much less during charging. I am not an expert on battery chemistry so will defer to others to verify the accuracy of those statements.
Maintenance
In addition to the new Lance camper, I currently own a boat and a 5th-wheel RV. In the past I have owned two other boats and one other RV. As such, I have a fair amount of experience with maintaining batteries in battery boxes. I have never experienced such limited battery access as in the 855 and I have never had such difficulty in taking the cover off of a battery box. There is simply too much stuff inside the battery compartment. In particular, the controller board that runs the jacks gets in the way of removing the right-side battery cover. You can somewhat see this in Figure 3. Unfortunately, the maintenance of flooded-cell batteries can be a recurring task during periods of heavy use and the ability to access the batteries for water replenishment is important.
I was afraid that I was going to rip a wire loose from the controller board or tear the furnace duct tube in the process of removing the battery cover. As mentioned earlier, it is nearly impossible to access the right-most screws on the right-hand battery box cover. Wow, what a painful experience! Then I had to figure out how to get it all back together โ an equally painful experience! I swore profusely and had to walk away a few times to cool down.
Honestly, I have never seen such a terrible layout. The technician who did the battery installation at my dealer had a very negative opinion about the battery compartment when he gave me the pre-delivery walk-through. I didnโt fully appreciate what he was saying until I had a chance to experience it firsthand. I quickly came to share his opinion. We are not alone โ there are many mentions of the 855 battery compartment on the RV.net and Lance Ownerโs forums. Several people have posted that they decided against purchasing an 855 because of it.
I have a few ideas on what might be done to make things better.
Conclusion
All complex systems have tradeoffs in design but safety must always come first. Maintenance of flooded-cell batteries can be a frequent task during periods of heavy use and the ability to access the batteries for water replenishment is critical. At it is, the battery compartment of the 855 product is a maintenance headache and a product liability lawsuit in the making. It is a blemish on an otherwise outstanding product. People are talking about it on the forums and their words are quickly spreading. Sales have been lost because of it.
I would like to preface this post by saying that I have never taken the time to bring a product safety issue to the attention of a manufacturer before. I do so now as I am genuinely concerned about this. I don't just point out problems, I also make detailed suggestions on how to fix them. I do not seek any form of compensation. I do want Lance to respond to my claims.
I openly acknowledge that I have used a couple of pictures posted by another contributor to this forum who goes by the user name "skipro3" and I reference his post with a hyperlink in the document that I sent to Lance and in this post. I use his pictures as I had already repaired my camper before I got fired up enough to document my concerns and take any pictures of my own.
Please note that I don't use a fictitious user name on this forum, or any forum, as I believe in transparency.
Following is the content of the paper I sent to Lance.
Introduction
I recently purchased a Lance 855S camper. Most everything about the camper is excellent except the layout of the battery compartment. There are a number of issues about the battery compartment that I feel are worth documenting and are the reason I took the time to write this paper. In this paper I use 855 and 855S interchangeably as the battery compartments appear to be the same for both products.
First, let me say that I am an electrical engineer and I know that in any system design as complex as an RV, tradeoffs have to be made. An RV is essentially a small house that travels down the road. It is a significant design challenge and I have some appreciation for the kinds of tradeoffs that have to be made to satisfy all of the product requirements. That said, safety can never be compromised and the ability to access and service high-maintenance components of the RV should be high on the prioritized list of requirements.
When I look at the 855S as a whole, I see a great product in terms of comfort, features, and build quality, all in a light-weight package. I also see the following limitations which are no doubt tradeoffs due to weight and size requirements: limited outside accessible storage, relatively small holding tanks, and 20-lb propane bottles instead of 30-lb bottles. Another apparent tradeoff is the battery compartment. It must be a tradeoff as it is only accessible from the inside and is stuffed with so much other equipment that it makes access to the batteries extremely difficult. In addition, the batteries are in the same small compartment as the AC-to-DC converter which poses a safety hazard. I can get along with the other tradeoffs but the layout of the battery compartment and poor access to the batteries is so bad I feel compelled to document it. I discuss my perception of the safety and maintenance issues in separate sections of this paper.
Safety
Placing the batteries in the same small compartment as an AC-to-DC converter that makes the following statement in its installation manual is reckless and a product liability issue:
โUnit is NOT ignition protected. Do not mount in the LP gas or the battery compartment.โ
I am not making this up, see the outlined text of the scanned page from the PD4000 Power Control Center installation manual shown in Figure 1.
Figure 1: Scanned image of PD4000 Power Control Center installation manual.
Yes, the batteries are in battery boxes that are vented to the outside and I assume your engineers felt that was sufficient to prevent an accumulation of hydrogen gas in the compartment. I, however, do not agree. Here are some things to consider:
- Flooded-cell lead-acid batteries, the type installed by my dealer and most dealers, out-gas during bulk charging. Bulk charging will occur whenever the batteries have been significantly discharged.
- The batteries are vented to the outside through openings that are forward facing such that when traveling down the road there is positive pressure into the vents. The positive pressure will force any hydrogen gas to backflow into the compartment it shares with the AC-to-DC converter. The battery boxes are poorly sealed clamshells which cannot prevent leakage when positive pressure is applied.
- It appears that Lance leaves it to the dealer to install the batteries and battery cables. Because of the difficulty in getting the battery covers off/on and the limited space to route the cables, the dealers tend to do a terrible job and hack up the battery box covers creating gaping holes from which hydrogen gas can easily leak. Figures 2 and 3 below are photos of one dealerโs hatchet job. Clearly, this is NOT SAFE.
Figure 2: Close up of gaping hole in one battery cover. Safe?
Figure 3: View showing battery boxes in the same compartment as AC-to-DC converter and forward facing vents.
For more details and more photos of this ownerโs experience, refer to the following post on the RV.net forum:
Wiring issues with my 2012 Lance 855S
My dealer did an equally poor job but in different ways. The holes in the battery covers were not huge slots like those in the previous photos; instead, the holes were not quite big enough to accommodate the rubber grommets so they simply left the grommets off which resulted in a wide gap between the cable and the hole in the cover โ more than enough for gas to leak from. In addition, the lugs on the battery cables were so poorly crimped that several of them literally fell off when I attempted to reconnect them. Furthermore, the cables were made from #2 AWG house wire which is very stiff and difficult to work with and the cables were about three feet too long. Needless to say I threw those cables overboard and built new ones from fine-strand #2 automotive cable, cut to length, with soldered-on lugs.
Even if the battery covers are not molested by the dealer, they are poorly sealed at the junction between the top and bottom portion of the clamshell. From the experience of the owner who wrote the forum post and from my own experience, the dealers are having a difficult time installing all the screws that hold the clamshells together due to the cramped quarters. In particular the screws on the far right side of the right-hand battery box are nearly impossible to get to. Try as I might, I was not able to get one of those two screws installed.
But then, you might think to yourself that hydrogen gas is lighter than air and will therefore travel up and out the top of the battery box through the vent tube and it doesnโt matter that screws are missing and the clamshells donโt seal well. Right? Maybe not . . . consider the following sequence of events which I submit are a typical usage scenario of a truck camper and will possibly results in an explosion or fire:
- The camper has been taken off of the truck and lowered as low as possible to aid entry at the campsite.
- In preparation for departure from the campsite, the camper is raised up and loaded onto the truck during which the jacks are run nearly to their upper limit. This imposes a large drain on the batteries and they will need to be recharged.
- The camperโs electrical cord is plugged into the truckโs 12V electrical system.
- The truck and camper travel down the road.
- While traveling, positive pressure from the wind created by the truckโs movement is hitting the forward-facing battery vents.
- Also while traveling, the electrical system of the truck is charging the batteries.
- Due to charging, hydrogen gas bubbles out of the battery and is pushed outward into the small battery compartment due to the positive pressure on the battery vents and the poorly sealed battery boxes.
- The truck and camper arrive at their destination and the camper is plugged into AC shore power which energies the AC-to-DC converter which is specified as being โNOT ignition protectedโ.
- Boom ... an explosion and/or fire occurs due to the highly flammable hydrogen gas that has built up in the battery compartment.
Unless I am way off in my reasoning, this is a significant product liability issue and needs to be taken very seriously. This is especially true when you consider how badly the battery covers are being molested by some dealers.
As I see it, there are several things that can be done to help mitigate this problem. Here are some of the things I have thought of.
- Only install AGM type batteries as they are reported to out-gas much less during charging.
- Pre-install the batteries and pre-route the cables at the factory to prevent the dealer from doing the kind of hatchet job shown in the photos.
- Vent the batteries in such a way that the vents are exposed to only negative pressure (vacuum) when traveling. This would require that the vents be side or rear facing.
- Move the AC-to-DC converter to another compartment.
AGM batteries pre-installed and pre-wired from the factory is likely the easiest solution. It is my understanding that AGM batteries have zero maintenance which would help with the issues I raise in the Maintenance section. It is also my understanding that AGM batteries out-gas much less during charging. I am not an expert on battery chemistry so will defer to others to verify the accuracy of those statements.
Maintenance
In addition to the new Lance camper, I currently own a boat and a 5th-wheel RV. In the past I have owned two other boats and one other RV. As such, I have a fair amount of experience with maintaining batteries in battery boxes. I have never experienced such limited battery access as in the 855 and I have never had such difficulty in taking the cover off of a battery box. There is simply too much stuff inside the battery compartment. In particular, the controller board that runs the jacks gets in the way of removing the right-side battery cover. You can somewhat see this in Figure 3. Unfortunately, the maintenance of flooded-cell batteries can be a recurring task during periods of heavy use and the ability to access the batteries for water replenishment is important.
I was afraid that I was going to rip a wire loose from the controller board or tear the furnace duct tube in the process of removing the battery cover. As mentioned earlier, it is nearly impossible to access the right-most screws on the right-hand battery box cover. Wow, what a painful experience! Then I had to figure out how to get it all back together โ an equally painful experience! I swore profusely and had to walk away a few times to cool down.
Honestly, I have never seen such a terrible layout. The technician who did the battery installation at my dealer had a very negative opinion about the battery compartment when he gave me the pre-delivery walk-through. I didnโt fully appreciate what he was saying until I had a chance to experience it firsthand. I quickly came to share his opinion. We are not alone โ there are many mentions of the 855 battery compartment on the RV.net and Lance Ownerโs forums. Several people have posted that they decided against purchasing an 855 because of it.
I have a few ideas on what might be done to make things better.
- Factory install AGM batteries which have zero maintenance or factory install flooded-cell batteries with a battery watering system so they can be maintained without having to take the battery covers off. That way the battery covers only have to be removed every five years or more when the old batteries are changed out for new ones.
- Place a door on the front side of the camper that provides access to the batteries from the outside. It would be much easier to get the battery covers off if they could go forward and out a door.
- As long as you are at it donโt just put a door, put a slide-out tray. Make it an option and charge for it. I know I would pay for it.
- As the screws that hold the two halves of the battery boxes together are difficult to access, install battery boxes that use a strap instead of screws.
- Move the jack controller board to another location or have Atwood redesign it such that it is smaller and can be located in an up-down orientation. The current slanted orientation and large size is the main source of the maintenance access problems.
- Raise the height of the compartment another inch and/or extend it another inch so that the jack controller board can be located at a better angle and avoid interference with the battery box cover.
- Get rid of the excess 20 ft. of telephone cable inside the compartment. That was one of the first things I did as it tends to get in the way. Surely you can get that cable built to a custom length.
Conclusion
All complex systems have tradeoffs in design but safety must always come first. Maintenance of flooded-cell batteries can be a frequent task during periods of heavy use and the ability to access the batteries for water replenishment is critical. At it is, the battery compartment of the 855 product is a maintenance headache and a product liability lawsuit in the making. It is a blemish on an otherwise outstanding product. People are talking about it on the forums and their words are quickly spreading. Sales have been lost because of it.
Thanks for the last photo, Mike. My Lance 855S does not have that hole in the bottom half. I plan to pull them out and add holes and mount a flange that fits the pipe. (If the pipe is even there! I do have the vent at the camper's door, so I'm hopeful)
I just pulled one of the batteries out of my Lance 855S and, sure enough, there is a hole in the bottom of the battery box and it is piped to a vent on the rear of the camper.
I assume that this creates a low-pressure area (partial vacuum) at the bottom of the battery box when traveling at speed and any gases produced by the battery will be sucked out the bottom. Of course that assumes that the battery boxes are well sealed and not like those depicted in my original post.
Much thanks to JumboJet for pointing this out. Due to this I remove my dire warning about hydrogen gas buildup in the compartment due to positive pressure into the forward facing vents.
I respectfully submit that Lance still needs to address the safety issue created by the dealers cutting gaping holes in the battery box top covers. In my letter to the President of Lance, I urged him to contact their customers and find out how pervasive the installation problem is. The dealers are doing a poor installation job because it is difficult to do otherwise. I believe that people will do the right thing when it is easy to do it. When it is difficult, people will take shortcuts. That is human nature and to expect otherwise is irresponsible of the manufacturer.
As I wrote in my previous post, we all take safety of a product for granted. It is a basic contract of our developed society. How many Lance campers are out there with leaky battery boxes sitting next to an AC-DC converter that is not ignition safe? How many of the owners of those campers are clueless to the hazard this presents? The Venn diagram of those two sets is greater than zero.
Enough said.
I assume that this creates a low-pressure area (partial vacuum) at the bottom of the battery box when traveling at speed and any gases produced by the battery will be sucked out the bottom. Of course that assumes that the battery boxes are well sealed and not like those depicted in my original post.
Much thanks to JumboJet for pointing this out. Due to this I remove my dire warning about hydrogen gas buildup in the compartment due to positive pressure into the forward facing vents.
I respectfully submit that Lance still needs to address the safety issue created by the dealers cutting gaping holes in the battery box top covers. In my letter to the President of Lance, I urged him to contact their customers and find out how pervasive the installation problem is. The dealers are doing a poor installation job because it is difficult to do otherwise. I believe that people will do the right thing when it is easy to do it. When it is difficult, people will take shortcuts. That is human nature and to expect otherwise is irresponsible of the manufacturer.
As I wrote in my previous post, we all take safety of a product for granted. It is a basic contract of our developed society. How many Lance campers are out there with leaky battery boxes sitting next to an AC-DC converter that is not ignition safe? How many of the owners of those campers are clueless to the hazard this presents? The Venn diagram of those two sets is greater than zero.
Enough said.
JumboJet wrote:Mike Stanbro wrote:
Good question. I am a bit embarrassed to admit that I was not aware of the battery compartment issues until I had taken possession of the camper.
Here is a picture of the advertisement from YouTube of 2013 Lance 855.
Does the rear of your camper look like this? Do you REALLY have a problem? REALLY?
Whats your point? I don't have as much problem with batteries being inside the rig as I do them being in a compartment with a piece of equipment that clearly states don't put me in a battery compartment...
Mike Stanbro wrote:
Good question. I am a bit embarrassed to admit that I was not aware of the battery compartment issues until I had taken possession of the camper.
Here is a picture of the advertisement from YouTube of 2013 Lance 855.
Does the rear of your camper look like this? Do you REALLY have a problem? REALLY?
