Lightening tongue weight

[MargaretB]

It has occurred to us that if we just camp alone, with nothing in the TV but ourselves and a bag of potato chips, we're good with the tongue weight. But after subtracting it from our payload, we don't have much left except ourselves and those chips.

So how can we lighten our tongue weight? We have two propane tanks and two batteries. We're happy to move one of the batteries, but where? How far behind the hitch does it have to be to lighten the tongue weight? We have room under the bed in our TT, but that's the front of the TT and would put weight on the hitch.

Is there anything else we can do to lighten the tongue to free up some of that payload so we can take our grands camping next summer?

[chracatoa]

I have the ProPride and I leave the tongue weight at 10% (I have a tongue scale). Nothing goes in the TV except people or bikes for a short ride (otherwise they too go in the trailer).

I'll buy a better TV as soon as I can but not for the next 5 years or so 😞

[spoon059]

Well, you are right to some degree. I was a little too specific when I stated warranty work only. I meant more warranty than safety related, my mistake.

Obviously the manufacturer wants to keep warranty repair costs down. Having lower payload and tow ratings helps keep them from fixing a lot under warranty.

Manufacturers also want a good reputation and want people to continue buying new vehicles. Keeping those ratings below the true actual rating helps with longevity... hence why manufacturers derate engines.

Manufacturers want to reduce liability. If they know the failure point is 100 lbs, they want a nice compromise between longevity, ego and failure. If that means they rate that piece at 60 lbs, they know they are way below the failure rate and it would take an obvious excess of 60 lbs to cause failure. They want to be able to prove that they rated it so far below the failure rate that it couldn't possibly have failed due to the manufacturers negligence.

I misstated my point by saying WARRANTY ONLY. Either way... its not a SAFETY ISSUE.

[rbpru]

By the time you have called in “expert witnesses” to justify your position, all bets are off. Good luck trying to show you were or were not "within spec." Add to this other factors like quality of brake shoes on the TT and TV, the stability of your particular towing combo or how well balanced your TT load was front to back and side to side and you will discover; that is what your lawyer is for.

Most people just want to know how well their TV matches their TT. Several will find that they are probably at or a bit over the limit, based on their best guess.

Even the so called experts hedge their numbers. Ford’s tongue weight data indicates a 10 % of TT weight others say 12 or 13%. Some claim WD hitches transfer 15% others as much as 22% of the tongue weight to the trailer.

Even if you weigh your rig on the scales you can easily get a 200 lb. shift due to TV gas tank level and TT water and other changing loads.

In the end, people have to be within their comfort zone, and we know that comfort zones vary quite a bit.

[Community Alumni]

spoon059 wrote:

No... manufacturers stamp the ratings that they will stand behind for WARRANTY work....
These ratings are for warranty work ONLY.

Gdetrailer is right on this one. The ratings have more to do with liability, longevity, and certification than warranty claims. The manufacturer's engineers know what the absolute limits are for a vehicle and know what's the safe operating limits are for each component. That's something that you cannot say with any certainty. Whatever number they decide has legal ramifications for them. If you snap an axle and take out a school bus of children then it's the manufacturers duty to explain why the design failed while within the safe operating limits. Warranty work is nothing when you compare it to the hundreds of millions of dollars that has to be paid out in a wrongful death suits. Not to mention how bad they would look in the court of public opinion.

If you're in the same situation while overloaded then it's your duty to explain why you can exceed those limits. T plaintiff will call the manufacturer's engineers as an expert witness and they'll gladly show up. They don't want anyone thinking they are to blame. They'll show up with real numbers and actual data setting you up for a big "oops" moment. Even if you somehow come out victorious, you're still on the hook for thousands of dollars in legal fees to just defend yourself.

The manufacturer still has to build a vehicle that will comply with FMVSS. You may be able to overload your vehicle by a ton, but good luck trying to get it to pass FMVSS.

They also have to specify limits that will account for vehicle longevity to it. What good is setting high limits if the vehicle is toast as soon as the warranty is up? Seeing tons of their trucks parked on the side of the road doesn't make them look.

Those limits are in no way absolute physical limits. However they are limits that the manufacturer has deemed as safe. Once you exceed those limits then you've taken on all the risk yourself. I have ran grossly overloaded several times in the past, but I completely understand the potential consequences for doing so.

[Huntindog]

rexlion wrote:
Oh, so the 10% hitch weight rule of thumb has been transformed into a 12% ruled of thumb by the weight police. Sorry, I must have missed the memo! All this time I'd thought that the 10% rule was a good one. We'd better sound the alarm to all those Europeans who tow with small cars and 5%- 8% hitch weights (they do keep their speed down, but somehow manage not to kill themselves even without sway control hitches).

Yes, an AGM battery could be used inside. Optima is considered a good brand. I didn't suggest it because the OP already had two good batteries, and not everyone wants to junk a perfectly good battery to buy a new one.... maybe even two, since I'm not sure how the AGM and the lead acid battery will do when charging them together.

Take a deep breath.

The 10% is a minimum. The heavier the better, but there is a practical limitation of how much the TV, and hitch can handle. So 15% became the default as the upper recommendation. I am often over that, but it's OK as my TV and hitch are capable.
So with 10 as the minimum, and 15 as the max... Why do many shoot for the middle... Wouldn't 10% work just fine? Sure IF that is always the figure. like say a trailer full of bricks.

TTs are houses with wheels Things get moved in your stick and brick house, and they will in the TT too. Nobody puts the dirty clothes back in the same drawer as their clean clothes.
Plus we carry our sewer system with us. FW will get used and move to the waste water tanks. Food and drink will get consumed and leave the fridge/pantry and end up there as well. Propane gets burned and disappears. Many other things may ride home in a different place than they started the trip. So in a TT the TW can change a LOT in the course of a trip... That 10% figure doesn't seem quite so safe when all of that is considered.

When one wants to cut it close on TW, you really need to be sure of what you are doing. That would mean weighing it EVERYTIME you hitch up.
I am not of a mind to agree that a couple in their 70s and rookies at towing should take the route you are suggesting.

[rexlion]

Oh, so the 10% hitch weight rule of thumb has been transformed into a 12% ruled of thumb by the weight police. Sorry, I must have missed the memo! All this time I'd thought that the 10% rule was a good one. We'd better sound the alarm to all those Europeans who tow with small cars and 5%- 8% hitch weights (they do keep their speed down, but somehow manage not to kill themselves even without sway control hitches).

Yes, an AGM battery could be used inside. Optima is considered a good brand. I didn't suggest it because the OP already had two good batteries, and not everyone wants to junk a perfectly good battery to buy a new one.... maybe even two, since I'm not sure how the AGM and the lead acid battery will do when charging them together.

[spoon059]

Gdetrailer wrote:
The manufacturers STAMP THE RATINGS THAT THEY WILL STAND BEHIND as being "safe". Once you go outside those ratings then YOU are taking the burden of being the engineer and there is no way you are going to know exactly how the vehicle is going to perform the task under any conditions.

No... manufacturers stamp the ratings that they will stand behind for WARRANTY work. Safety is not as simple as heavier frame and bigger brakes. Having a dumbass drive a Kenworth pulling a 1,000 lbs trailer doesn't make it "safe". On the other hand, having a half ton driver pulling overloaded with 50,000 miles of experience and defensive driving ability is likely safer than the Kenworth.

These ratings are for warranty work ONLY.

I have loaded over a ton of gravel in the bed of my Tundra with a 1500 lbs payload rating. I've done it multiple times. My truck handled fine.

Toyota claims that I can tow a 10,000 lbs trailer. Therefore Toyota believes that between my brakes and the brakes in a properly equipped trailer, it will stop a total of 15,000 lbs. Now, my new trailer will have 3,000 lbs of cargo carrying capacity. So, instead of carrying that 3,000 lbs in my trailer, suppose I put an additional 1,000 lbs in the truck bed. My combined brakes are capable of stopping 15,000 lbs. My truck, trailer and gear in the bed weigh 13,000. How is that unsafe? Its still 2,000 lbs BELOW manufacturer ratings... its just distributed differently.

Then engine and transmission don't know where that weight sits... they just know they are pulling it. Same with the rear axle. No safety issues there.

The brakes don't know where the weight sits... they are just stopping it. I would be below my maximum approved weight limit for the braking system.

My Tundra with an additional 1,000 lbs in the bed now weighs as much as a 3/4 ton truck, so it shouldn't be "pushed around" by the "tail" of the dog. No safety issues there.

Perhaps long term towing like this will eventually bend the frame... but if you tow 3,000 miles a year or less, I would imagine it takes a LONG time to bend the frame. But, suppose the frame bends... what is the SAFETY ISSUE here?

Lots and lots of half ton owners overload their trucks and don't even know about it. These weekend warriors believe the RV salesmen that they can tow anything on the lot. You don't see or hear too many stories about catastrophic wrecks. My insurance company didn't substantially increase my insurance rates because I tow. Seems to me that if half ton trucks towing RV's were involved in so many accidents that my rates would be higher.

Listen, I agree that towing over your ratings will likely cause faster wear and tear on your truck, but I see NOTHING to substantiate the safety issue.

Safety is more related to the driver and his/her abilities than simply the vehicle. A Ram 3500 dually rated for 30,000 lbs driven over the speed limit can be much less safe than my Tundra rated for 10,000 lbs driven at the speed limit and with appropriate defense driving skills.

All that being said... DO NOT REDUCE YOUR TONGUE WEIGHT BELOW 12-15%. Too light of tongue weight is the easiest way to lose control of your trailer. I would rather drive a truck that is 500 lbs over your GVWR than pull a trailer with too light tongue weight.

[MargaretB]

Yes, I'm getting that message! We have a truck scale in town, so that's where we did our weighing. I printed off the instructions for weighing and we stopped by there on our way out of town on our maiden voyage. And of course the scale guys know how to do it.

So we won't be reducing our TW. Thanks to all for the advice.

[Lantley]

Margaret I understand you are new and seeking advice. I will be blunt with these comments.
Removing tanks and or battery to lighten tongue is a bad idea.
The easiest way to create instability and induce sway is to lighten your tongue.
Unless you know what you are doing you will be making a huge mistake.
Are you using a Sherline tongue scale to verify your moves and taking test rides?
In short reducing your TW is not a solution.Instead it is a recipe for disaster

[brulaz]

MargaretB wrote:

...
Thanks for the s=information about the battery - I didn't know that they can emit noxious vapors.
...

AGM sealed batteries can be safely used inside, and the price of AGMs is declining. Costco or Sam's Club has some AGM golf-cart type 6V batteries at pretty reasonable prices now.

We have a 15% tongue weight with two 6V standard golf cart batteries on the tongue (~120#). I've been thinking of replacing them with AGMs inside further back toward the trailer axle. Since I also want to double our battery capacity (and weight) the net effect on tongue weight will be about the same, but at least it will not be much worse!!

Personally, I prefer a high % tongue weight for stable towing. But it definitely does put a dent in your tow truck's payload.

[MargaretB]

rexlion wrote:
MargaretB, I think you could quite safely reduce hitch weight to 10% or 11%. I haven't read everything you may have posted about your rig, but I assume you're using some sort of sway control? You could start by subtracting one LP tank and one battery. One tank will last from 1 to 3 weeks depending on usage, provided you are not cold-weather camping. And a single battery will keep you going quite well for a couple of days, or longer if you have a generator or a solar panel or shore power. I carry a 75W solar panel and plug it into the front pigtail (the one that goes to your tow vehicle) while at the campground.

Speaking of generators, some people mount them on the back bumper (after making sure their bumper will support the weight) and this will reduce hitch weight also.

I have towed various trailers (from 24' long to about 10') for somewhat over 300,000 miles, using vehicles ranging from a half ton pickup to a Dodge Omni. I have only had a sway problem one time... and that was with a 4'x8' (10' overall length) utility trailer! It was poorly loaded, with a long, heavy steel part sticking out the back about 2' and there was a negative tongue weight. Yes, this was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. But my point is, dangerous sway is not all that common. The way to avoid sway is to maintain proper hitch weight, and when in doubt, use a sway control hitch as insurance. Oh, and keep the speed at a reasonable level, like 55 mph (or at most 60 mph, when you are not in CA, obviously) because sway tendency can increase at higher speeds. At 55 your sway control will protect you pretty well from rare events like unusually violent crosswinds and such.

Getting a bit off topic now, I just want to comment that it amazes me what the manufacturers call "ultra light" sometimes. My '04 Rockwood was just a tad under 24' long and had a slide like yours, but it only weighed 3400 lb dry. By comparison, your 230 is (if I pulled the right specs) a tad over 25' long and 4920 lb dry... not so ultra light IMO!

BTW you don't want to relocate a battery to the interior, as the battery can vent unhealthy gases. Just thought I'd mention it.

When we measured the box, it came in at just over 22". The hitch would make it longer, of course, but the box itself is pretty close to 22'. And the dry weight was about 5000# - not so "ultra-lite," to my way of thinking. We have a sturdy WDH and a sway bar. Thanks for the s=information about the battery - I didn't know that they can emit noxious vapors. We've thought about just leaving one battery and one propane tank home, because at least for the next few months, our camping will be short trips with full hookups. Thanks for all the useful information you gave!

[rexlion]

MargaretB, I think you could quite safely reduce hitch weight to 10% or 11%. I haven't read everything you may have posted about your rig, but I assume you're using some sort of sway control? You could start by subtracting one LP tank and one battery. One tank will last from 1 to 3 weeks depending on usage, provided you are not cold-weather camping. And a single battery will keep you going quite well for a couple of days, or longer if you have a generator or a solar panel or shore power. I carry a 75W solar panel and plug it into the front pigtail (the one that goes to your tow vehicle) while at the campground.

Speaking of generators, some people mount them on the back bumper (after making sure their bumper will support the weight) and this will reduce hitch weight also.

I have towed various trailers (from 24' long to about 10') for somewhat over 300,000 miles, using vehicles ranging from a half ton pickup to a Dodge Omni. I have only had a sway problem one time... and that was with a 4'x8' (10' overall length) utility trailer! It was poorly loaded, with a long, heavy steel part sticking out the back about 2' and there was a negative tongue weight. Yes, this was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. But my point is, dangerous sway is not all that common. The way to avoid sway is to maintain proper hitch weight, and when in doubt, use a sway control hitch as insurance. Oh, and keep the speed at a reasonable level, like 55 mph (or at most 60 mph, when you are not in CA, obviously) because sway tendency can increase at higher speeds. At 55 your sway control will protect you pretty well from rare events like unusually violent crosswinds and such.

Getting a bit off topic now, I just want to comment that it amazes me what the manufacturers call "ultra light" sometimes. My '04 Rockwood was just a tad under 24' long and had a slide like yours, but it only weighed 3400 lb dry. By comparison, your 230 is (if I pulled the right specs) a tad over 25' long and 4920 lb dry... not so ultra light IMO!

BTW you don't want to relocate a battery to the interior, as the battery can vent unhealthy gases. Just thought I'd mention it.

[cekkk]

rbpru wrote:
cekkkI would guess your question about over loading aircraft would bring two different responses from a weekend flyer or a Bush Pilot.

You're right! "Most dangerous jobs in America - it's the bush pilots, the air-taxi operators and the small commercial flyers. 2008 fatality rate: 72.4 per 100,000 workers." (CNN Money)

It's sure not lack of experience. It's that constant pressure to push the envelope. Sure proves the old adage, "no old, bold pilots." :B

[MargaretB]

jaycocreek wrote:
... To the op...Try putting stuff in the back of the trailer if there is a door there instead of adding it to the so called payload of the vehicle.I sometimes put my generator just inside the door and or extra water/cooler etc instead of in the pickup bed.Easier to load and unload those items too.

We do't have a rear door, but I'm thinking that if we get a generator, it can travel in the bathroom, which is small enough to hold it securely with plenty of padding. The only other place to put it is under the bed, which is in the front.