Main Circuit Breaker Switch

[retcsgt]

Help Needed!! Do all master circuit breaker switch's throw when all electrical appliances are being used? I have my water heater, refer, TV, A/C, micro-wave, and then small appliances, toaster, coffee maker, iron. And if it is natural, why have it on 30 amp and not 50 amp?

[pianotuna]

Hi retcsgt,

"What if" questions are rarely useful.

KD4 was offering solutions (good ones, I might add). Even some 50 amp RV's require "load balancing". Find out what works for you.

I pay for things I don't have to on a regular basis. For example, I can cook a steak in my RV using solar energy stored in the battery bank, or I can go to a restaurant--and have the same meal and pay lots for it. Or I can buy some poor lost soul a meal, with the money I saved using solar power to make that food for myself.

BTW I'm a certified propane miser and in a thirteen month period spend $17.xx for that fuel. If I had purchased it in Minot the cost would have been under $1.00 per month.

[retcsgt]

This reply is to KD4UPL. I'm glad you can't "imagine" and listed all the "while's" at what you can't/don't do. Have you ever heard of hypothetical terms? That's what I was using. As for the wanting to do? Yah, I stay at places I don't pay for electricity, why would I want to use propane? Any one in there right mind don't pay for what they don't have do. Nibble on that awhile.

[KD4UPL]

Your unit is not defective. No one ripped you off. There fore there is not "recourse". You just can't run everything at the same time. That is the case for every RV made.
I can't imagine actually running everything you listed at the same time anyway. Who watches TV while making coffee, while ironing, while making toast, while using the microwave, while also drawing hot water?
You could help the situation by turning your refrigerator and WH to propane. This would reduce the load.

[usmc616]

I do not run the a/c when I need to run the microwave if I have the water heater on electric otherwise my breaker will trip also.

[westend]

Replacing the original 30 amp load center with 50 amp service, the installation of a new power inlet, and supplying a 50 amp shore power cord may be closer to $500-$700. A lot depends on how your rig is built and local labor costs.
An additional cost might also be any kind of home power hookup you are using, if you want to run everything at your home. Otherwise, a 50-30 amp adaptor will work if you have a dedicated 30 amp receptacle at home.

[kaydeejay]

retcsgt wrote:
My TT has 30 amp service now, just don't understand why they place all these appliances in it if main circuit breaker isn't going to allow them to work at same time. Is there any recourse from my point against the dealership that sold me the unit?

Because you don't HAVE to use everything at once - that's why!
The availability of 220V/50A service at campgrounds used to be rare, 30A was more the norm and 15/20A was also quite common.
A 50A service (2 x 50A @ 120V) will provide 12,000 watts of power
A 30A service (1 x 30A @ 120V) will provide up to 3600 watts of power.
You choose what you want to run up to those limits.
Add the fact that 50A service requires MUCH heavier wiring and a split panel and the costs escalate dramatically.
I don't know many TTs that come with a 50A service, mostly higher end 5th wheels and Motor homes.
Many of us survive quite well with 30A service, it's just a question of managing the demand.
As for recourse against the dealership - give you head a shake! What exactly do you think he misled you about?
Now if you want to convert your rig to 50A, spend $1000+ and I'm sure a qualified electrician would be happy to do it for you!

[pianotuna]

Hi,

It was sold as a 30 amp unit. Why would there be any recourse? Many homes have only a 100 amp service and there is rather rarely a problem with the main breaker tripping. In fact, I've never had one trip, nor do I know anyone who has had a problem.

It is rare that all the devices in an RV will be "on" at the same time.

There ARE some things you can do that will help you out, but they require changes to the RV.

Here are some ideas in a random order.

Add an auxiliary 20 amp shore power cord. If there is space in the power distribution center, add a female outlet and put a plug on the end of the items you wish to run on this "extra" service. I chose my water heater.

Add a double pole double throw switch and power the water heater or microwave. One position powers the micro, the other the water heater. The water will remain hot enough for a warm shower for about 8 hours. (I did not choose to do this, but others have.)

I added a second auxiliary cord which I use to power various items. Again I used simple male and female plugs, so I can switch back to the OEM configuration in about 20 seconds.

I have a good size inverter @ 2500 watts. I added a dedicated inverter outlet in the kitchen. This lets me use lots of power on a short term basis--and the converter will recharge the battery bank over time. I leave my inverter running when ever I am in the RV.

I also have a "break out box" which lets me use 50 amps at the pedestal if it is available. It gives me a 30 amp (with breaker), and two 20 amp (with breakers) outlets.

These modifications allow me to run 30 amps OEM, 20 amps aux, 15 amps aux, and 22 amps from the inverter outlets, all at the same time.

If there are only 15 amp circuits available I still have plenty of power for my needs, so long as there are three circuits of shore power available.

If there is a single 15 amp circuit available. I can run my water heater, and converter, while powering the rest of the RV from the inverter.

If I am boondocking I'm limited to the 22 amps the inverter will provide. But that is pretty close to the 24 amps that the OEM should be run at to keep to the 80% of capacity guide line.

In a pinch I can add a further 2 or 3 amps using a second 400 inverter.

I hope these ideas help you out.

retcsgt wrote:
My TT has 30 amp service now, just don't understand why they place all these appliances in it if main circuit breaker isn't going to allow them to work at same time. Is there any recourse from my point against the dealership that sold me the unit?

[wanderingbob]

I do not believe that you have any legal recourse to your dealer unless he said to you , " you can run all this stuff at the same time ." Kinda like he sold you a truck with a speedometer that goes to 140 MPH . You have no right to expect that it will go that fast . Electric toys and electric usage in RVs grows and grows . Air conditioners are still options on many RVs as well as micro-waves . The Manufacturer installs what you demand , but you must learn to use it the way that the rest of us do . Shut the air off before using the micro-wave et/al . I think that you should have studied and checked before jumping in !

[mosseater]

retcsgt wrote:
My TT has 30 amp service now, just don't understand why they place all these appliances in it if main circuit breaker isn't going to allow them to work at same time. Is there any recourse from my point against the dealership that sold me the unit?

Golden HvAC said it best, and from my experience, he usually does.

Simply put (perhaps too simply) any electrical system is designed to allow many branch circuit amp ratings to total more than the main amp rating from a cost standpoint. You can run a bunch of things on many circuits that will not trip their individual branch circuit overload device, but will total more than the main can handle. There are a lot of misconceptions about how these systems are designed, but if you read the code book enough, you'll soon realize this is how it is. Check the panel in your stick house and you see I'm correct. The total of your specific and non-specific loads will exceed the rating of your main breaker, and that is allowed in code by percentage. Turn every thing in your house on at the same time and it will likely trip the main, but not any individual branch circuit breaker. I won't bore you with the nuts and bolts of why, but it's true in almost every case. It's set up that way for safety, as well as a best case (not every case, all case)day-to-day, cost-effective installation. You can up-grade these systems to handle all loads, all the time, every time, but most folks don't like the price point. There is a realist accepted standard that we tend to live with. The code book is a guide for minimum safe standards. You are free to pursue upgrades at the limitation of your purse strings as long as you adhere to those minimum standards. The importance of covering all loads, all the time, simply isn't that necessary for most people.

[john_b1]

retcsgt wrote:
My TT has 30 amp service now, just don't understand why they place all these appliances in it if main circuit breaker isn't going to allow them to work at same time. Is there any recourse from my point against the dealership that sold me the unit?

Because we all wanted them! It takes a small amount of brain training to learn to budget your electricity usage. We learned that about 45 years ago when you had very little electrically propelled stuff on board ?
I can not tell you when we last popped a breaker on our unit but I do remember a breaker we popped on the pole supplying us.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this and adjust accordingly..
We make coffee before the toast and systems such as this and it all makes the life away from home much more fun and educational..JMHO jb

[retcsgt]

My TT has 30 amp service now, just don't understand why they place all these appliances in it if main circuit breaker isn't going to allow them to work at same time. Is there any recourse from my point against the dealership that sold me the unit?

[ktmrfs]

retcsgt wrote:
Help Needed!! Do all master circuit breaker switch's throw when all electrical appliances are being used? I have my water heater, refer, TV, A/C, micro-wave, and then small appliances, toaster, coffee maker, iron. And if it is natural, why have it on 30 amp and not 50 amp?

Let's see, some typical current draws
WH 12A
fridge 3A
TV 2A
AC 15A
microwave 12A
toaster 12A
coffee maker 12A
iron 12A

total = 75A So unless you have a 220V 50A circuit (which is a 240V/50A with two split 120V lines, 50A each) your not going to be able run everything


I've found that
a) where we camp with hookups, only about 25% even offer a 50A hookup and thats not on all sites with electric
b) typical generator setups limit you to about 30A anyway
c) 50A cord is expensive and a PITA to handle and often not long enough anyway

so we just are careful about what is on.

[Golden_HVAC]

KD4UPL wrote:
The answer to the question is: Yes.
In your case you're pulling more than 30 amps. You just can't turn everything one at once.
WH - about 10 amps
Refer - around 2 amps
TV - probably 1 amp
AC - Mine pulls about 7 amps running
Microwave - usually around 10 amps
Toaster, coffer maker, iron - anywhere from 7 to 12 amps each.
As you can see, that adds up to way more than 30.

I see this answer is pretty well informed. However a couple of answers are a bit mis-leading, and I wonder why they continue to provide information if they have only a slight clue about what they are talking about.

A 30 amp circuit breaker is designed to trip when it gets hot, and that is "Around" 30 amps - give or take about 1 amp. So you should be able to load it to 30 amps without it tripping, unless you have 29.9 amps on it for several hours, it might trip. You can run 30.5 amps for about 5 minutes before it will trip, yet it should trip really fast at 32 amps (about 30 seconds).

Normally code requires going to a larger circuit breaker if your plan is to plug in more than 80% of it's rated current capacity, or in other words if your plan is to use 23 amps, code is fine with a 30 amp circuit breaker, but over 24.1 amps, they would require sizing the wiring and circuit breaker for 40 amps. This is so that after 30 years with 24.1 amps on the wiring, it will not have ever been overheated, and will not deteriorate inside the wall, requiring expensive replacement of the wires during the lifetime of the house it is installed in.

Yes the manufactures should be installing a 50 amp service in all RV's. However even the 30' power cord cost is about $150 more for the 50 amp service, so you still see a lot of 30 amp RV's being made. They really should have used a 30 amp 120/240 volt system, the cost would have been much less, but now campgrounds are used to the 30 amp and 50 amp systems, so that is what we are stuck with.

THe amperage listed above is a great guide. I have never tripped my 30 amp RV main breaker, despite living in the RV for several years, and camping in conditions as low as 95 volts into the RV. Low voltage can cause the air conditioner to draw more power, however the water heater, portable heater, refrigerator, and toaster will all draw less power on lower input voltage, so will work fine at 100 volts input. Just try to keep total amperage below about 25 amps, and you will be fine.

I found that my air conditioner is about 10 amps when running on a cooler day, but can go as high as 14 amps on a 105F day. Your battery charger can use between 0.5 and 2 amps, depending on the number of lights you have on at the time.

Fred.

[mbopp]

You listed some high-draw appliances - A/C, water heater (if electric), toaster, coffee maker, microwave, and iron. Generally you can run 2 of those items before tripping the main breaker. So if the A/C is on, you're making coffee, and you try to run the microwave you'll trip the main 30A breaker.

[RoyB]

Not sure I understand the question...

This is a typical wiring for the Camp site Pedestal providing both 50AMP and 30AMP service


This is a typical RV 50AMP Distribution. This give you two zones of 120VAC breakers. Note shown here one A/C unit is in zone one and the other A/C if installed is in zone two. All of the breakers here are rated for what they are to provide 120VAC protection for.



This is a typical RV 30AMP Distribution. This is only for a single zone of 120VAC breakers. Again each breaker used here are rated for the what they are to provide 120VAC prptection for.


If you have a 20AMP 120VAc circuit breaker installed it will trip when that particular circuit is drawing more than 20AMPs and will not trip the MAIN 50AMP or 30AMP circuit breaker.

You can plug a RV 30AMP system in the 50AMP receptacle using the proper RV30A to 50AMP Adapter and the 20AMP circuit breaker discussed above will also only trip when you have exceeded the 20AMPs current. The main 30AMP breaker for your 30AMP distribution panel will not trip.

just my thoughts
Roy Ken