Max. Trailer length - NP and state parks

[bodomalo]

I know this topic has been discusses maybe many times before, but I have a particular questions about those "lengths" trailer vs. 5th wheel.

Very often campgrounds have a max length for RV and for trailers
Example:
Max. RV length: 27"
Max. Trailer length: 24"

So the campsite itself might be much longer, as you need to park a trailer and a towing vehicle there (I would say there have to be campsites which are at least 42-45" long in total)
The limitation is very often the road to the campsite itself or a tight and narrow road on the campsite (not so easy to turn a trailer backwards into that spot).

Now my question: Is there a difference in the ability to drive backwards with a normal trailer compared to a 5th wheel trailer?

In total a 24" trailer + car might be a few feet longer than a
24" 5th wheel on a Pickup Truck (I would say 4-6 feet at least?)

So if there is a trailer limit of 24", would you say that you can still get into that campsite with a (example) 26" 5th wheel? Or doesn't it make any difference when trying to get into a spot?

[MFL]

LOL... Yep, your initial response already told me of your life time experience.

You didn't need to continue typing!

Jerry

[4X4Dodger]

MFL wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

MFL wrote:
To answer the backing question, a bumper pull trailer will start to turn quicker, when backing, due to being hooked to the very rear of the tow vehicle. A FW turns much slower when starting to back, but turns very quickly, once the angle starts to make a major change.

I never have much problem with SP campsites being too short for my 31' FW. I have found the FW height to be the bigger problem. Most SPs have a lot of trees, with low hanging branches.

Unless you get one of the really small FWs, most will be closer to 30 feet or more, overall length. There are not many newer 24' FWs available anymore.

Jerry

Turning radius is a function of the distance from the pivot point to the CL (center line) of the trailer wheels.

It has nothing to do with 5th wheel or bumper hitch.

The shorter the distance noted above the quicker it will respond and vice-versa.

"It has nothing to do with 5th wheel or bumper hitch"

Sorry Dodger, but it makes a big difference being hitched over the rear axle. Your truck will have to move much more initially, before the trailer will make much of a turn. As you know a TT turns right away, as the truck backs into a turn.

Try backing a friends FW, and you will more understand. A FW is harder for most, until you get used to it, for this very reason.

You are correct, that a longer, wheels farther back version of TT, or FW is generally easier to back. A short utility trailer, with a short tongue turns very quickly.

Jerry

I grew up in a family with a large trucking business, moving and storage, with agencies from Calif to North Carolina. I started backing "fifth wheels" tractor trailers when I was 14 in our lots up to the docks.

I have since owned my own trucks as a sideline to my "real career" and have had a class A cdl for most of my life. I doubt there is anything you can teach me about "fifth Wheels" their handling or the Physics involved.

My initial response is valid. It is strictly a function of the distance of pivot point to cl of trailer wheels.

As for the trailer going backwards...it happens often in tractor trailers in sharp turns and you must be aware of it but as one poster commented in terms of recreational vehicles it is a useless move.

Actually the longer the distance from pivot to cl of wheels actually makes it easier to back a trailer. Backing a fifth wheel or a bumper hitch is the same to me. Its like second nature.

There is a difference in how the process "feels" at the wheel but I guarantee you the laws of physics are not changed.

[rbpru]

On our trip to Montana we found that the older campgrounds and some of the State Parks were designed for shorter campers. It seems there was always a few spots for bigger units but the 25 footers had far more choices.

At the height of the tourist season at Glacier National Park, and park’s campsite were reserved ahead of time and the area’s private campsites were at premium. For a couple of days, we were literally squeezed in between two large motor coaches. Since we were on the go all day it did not make much difference, but it was certainly not a place for “camping”.

As for ease of parking, it is rather low on my list of priorities. If you are a newbie you are going to have to learn whether it is a motor coach, 5ver or tow behind. It is mostly a mindset.

What you know for sure is,
• Parking is a learned skill.
• Some spots are easier to back into than others.
• Pull troughs save a lot of time.
• Backing in is not a race, it makes no difference if it take 2 tries or 8 tries to get the TT where you want it.
• You will not get a discount for backing in perfectly on the first try, it will not go on your permanent record from high school nor will it make much difference 100 years from now.
I do like it when I make it on the first try but since my DW will not let me do my Snoopy Happy Dance in public; I have to be content with the feel good moment.

I usually park the TV at an angle. The front bumper is next to the side of the tongue. I did however get a note from a State Park Ranger once asking me to be sure to keep all four tires on the pavement.

Usually there is enough room in front of the TT, though at times I have backed the tires to the end of the parking pad and let the back overhang the grass so I could fit the TV in front.

[MFL]

4X4Dodger wrote:

MFL wrote:
To answer the backing question, a bumper pull trailer will start to turn quicker, when backing, due to being hooked to the very rear of the tow vehicle. A FW turns much slower when starting to back, but turns very quickly, once the angle starts to make a major change.

I never have much problem with SP campsites being too short for my 31' FW. I have found the FW height to be the bigger problem. Most SPs have a lot of trees, with low hanging branches.

Unless you get one of the really small FWs, most will be closer to 30 feet or more, overall length. There are not many newer 24' FWs available anymore.

Jerry

Turning radius is a function of the distance from the pivot point to the CL (center line) of the trailer wheels.

It has nothing to do with 5th wheel or bumper hitch.

The shorter the distance noted above the quicker it will respond and vice-versa.

"It has nothing to do with 5th wheel or bumper hitch"

Sorry Dodger, but it makes a big difference being hitched over the rear axle. Your truck will have to move much more initially, before the trailer will make much of a turn. As you know a TT turns right away, as the truck backs into a turn.

Try backing a friends FW, and you will more understand. A FW is harder for most, until you get used to it, for this very reason.

You are correct, that a longer, wheels farther back version of TT, or FW is generally easier to back. A short utility trailer, with a short tongue turns very quickly.

Jerry

[bid_time]

Ivylog wrote:
You cannot make a TT go backwards while the TV is going forward in a turn...

You want to make a bet?

All you have to be able to do is turn greater than 90° (or less then depending on how you look at it) (all it takes is a longer drawbar or a lifted truck). But the fact is, that maneuver is of no use at all in backing into a site. As a matter of fact, it's no use at all.

In reality, none of this has anything to do with the question the OP asked.

[ReneeG]

Thanks, Ivylog - yes, you don't have to be dead-on straight to hookup a fifth wheel.

[Ivylog]

Do not judge this post by the picture below... I've owned every type of RV except a TH which is a fairly recent invention. A 5er is more maneuverable than a TT PERIOD You cannot make a TT go backwards while the TV is going forward in a turn. You also do not need to be straight with a 5er to hook up unlike Western said. Yes ii's harder to make a 5er turn sharply but not if you pull the PU ahead several times to increase the angle of the turn when backing up. The ability/experience of the driver has more to do with where you can put the trailer than the type of trailer.

"Turning radius is a function of the distance from the pivot point to the CL (center line) of the trailer wheels." Guess you have never maid a 5er go backwards while turning around.:S
12 years ago I made the mistake of believing posts on here that 34' was the max for NP, SP, USFS CGs. Did not take long to learn that's not true and just because a CG has 26' max, that does not mean every site like the USFS CG below.


PS: there is another site at this CG with only 12 sites that I can get into, but the trees will block the Sat internet.

[4X4Dodger]

Before I bought my TT I did a study of the trailer lengths allowed at National Parks. As it turned out a 31/32 foot trailer fits about 95% of the national park campgrounds.

Now this did not include the concessionaire run RV parks in the NP's which will take much larger rigs.

I had a conversation with the folks at Reservation.gov and a few park rangers about the issue of just exactly what does the wording mean wheen it is printed RV length or Trailer length. Ie does it include your tow vehicle or just the trailer?

No one gave me a satisfactory explanation. It seems this is unresolved even at the park service.

[4X4Dodger]

MFL wrote:
To answer the backing question, a bumper pull trailer will start to turn quicker, when backing, due to being hooked to the very rear of the tow vehicle. A FW turns much slower when starting to back, but turns very quickly, once the angle starts to make a major change.

I never have much problem with SP campsites being too short for my 31' FW. I have found the FW height to be the bigger problem. Most SPs have a lot of trees, with low hanging branches.

Unless you get one of the really small FWs, most will be closer to 30 feet or more, overall length. There are not many newer 24' FWs available anymore.

Jerry

Turning radius is a function of the distance from the pivot point to the CL (center line) of the trailer wheels.

It has nothing to do with 5th wheel or bumper hitch.

The shorter the distance noted above the quicker it will respond and vice-versa.

[westernrvparkow]

ReneeG wrote:
"Now my question: Is there a difference in the ability to drive backwards with a normal trailer compared to a 5th wheel trailer?

"In total a 24" trailer + car might be a few feet longer than a
24" 5th wheel on a Pickup Truck (I would say 4-6 feet at least?)

So if there is a trailer limit of 24", would you say that you can still get into that campsite with a (example) 26" 5th wheel? Or doesn't it make any difference when trying to get into a spot? "

Our previous RV was a 32" TT. Our current is a 35" 5" fifth wheel. We have found that we can get into the same spots that we fit the TT. When you say drive backwards, I'm assuming backing up. There is a difference in TT vs FW because a FW is much more responsive. You're right about roads in and turns. We've found CG's with great sites, but forget about getting in. What I do often, is to check out Google Maps and I use the measurement scale at the bottom of the screen to measure the site and use other RV's seen as a comparison.

As stated by one other person here, we haven't found any problems with SP's, but NP are different. They built their campgrounds back before all these modern RV's and those can be a problem, but not inpossible with a shorter FW or TT.

Fifth wheels also require additional space in front of the truck to allow hitching and unhitching. A travel trailer can be hooked/unhooked to the tow ball at an angle, fifth wheels must be straight on. Motorhomes towing long trailers often require very wide turning radiuses to enter and exit. Triple axle rigs need more radius than single or double. We have to take facts like those into consideration when determining if a site has proper access for different types of rigs. Raw length is but a part of the puzzle.

[phillyg]

MFL wrote:
.............a bumper pull trailer will start to turn quicker, when backing, due to being hooked to the very rear of the tow vehicle. A FW turns much slower when starting to back, but turns very quickly, once the angle starts to make a major change..........

MFL is correct. Also, I have determined, particularly in FL, that the length of a particular space is longer than posted on the reserveamerica.com site. I suspect the same for their listings in other states. I have to admit to fudging (lying) about the length of my unit when making reservations. Only one time have I had to approach a space from the other direction to be able to turn into the space from the road, and the reason was a tree at the front corner of the space. I have also observed folks with small trailers having more difficulty getting into a space than some with large FWs, so experience has a lot to do with success.

[Flapper]

Even though I have what may be termed a "shorter" 5th, between the trailer and the truck, I always look for sites that are greater than 50', which usually give me just enough room to drop the 29' fifth, and then still back my truck all the way in when unhitched. Even that is kind of tight.
As noted, another issue is the width of the access road, and what is directly across from the entrance to the site. Not a lot of fun backing into a high angle site, with a solid row of trees on the other side of the single lane track they call an access road! If reserving, I always try to find a site that has another sites entrance directly across from it, to give me a little more room to maneuver. Of course, you rarely know what rocks or trees may be flanking the entrance until you get there!

[phillyg]

MFL wrote:
.............a bumper pull trailer will start to turn quicker, when backing, due to being hooked to the very rear of the tow vehicle. A FW turns much slower when starting to back, but turns very quickly, once the angle starts to make a major change..........

MFL is correct. Also, I have determined, particularly in FL, that the length of a particular space is longer than posted on the reserveamerica.com site. I suspect the same for their listings in other states. I have to admit to fudging (lying) about the length of my unit when making reservations. Only one time have I had to approach a space from the other direction to be able to turn into the space from the road, and the reason was a tree at the front corner of the space. I have also observed folks with small trailers having more difficulty getting into a space than some with large FWs, so experience has a lot to do with success.

[the_bear_II]

We have a 38ft 5th wheel. If a NP or SP will not allow us to use a site due to our size; in the area around most NP and SP there are private RV Resorts or Campgrounds with spaces to accommodate bigger RVs & Trailers.

We don't mind using these private parks since they offer more amenities than the NP & SP campgrounds. We drive into the NP & SP daily to see the sights.

The size restrictions may have more to do with the narrow and tight roads than length or breadth of a site. There have been a couple of times where (with the park ranger permission) we have driven the wrong way on a campground interior road to get to a site.