Ontario (MTO) towing regulations & truck campers

[Commutator]

There have been some good discussions on this in the past. I hope to start a new one as the rules have changed again. Also the RV-related FAQs have been removed from the MTO website recently. I've been reading the Highway Traffic Act (HTA) and thought I'd raise the subject here before trying to talk to the MTO - which can yield different answers from different people.

To date, I believed that Registered Gross Weight (RGW) was irrelevant when the truck camper was loaded. There used to be one statement on the website that a truck with a slide-in camper was considered a motorhome. Apparently that's been gone for a while. Until recently the MTO RV FAQ said "A truck camper reverts back to a truck when the camper is not being carried..." which I optimistically took to mean RGW didn't apply with the camper on. I have the RGW on my permit at only 4400kg as I'm only over that with the truck camper on and thus avoid needing the annual ON inspections (yellow stickers).

An MTO rep came to our car club meeting (while I was away) and told our members that a truck is a truck whether the camper is on it or not. It must have RGW set to include the camper and both truck & trailer will require annual ON inspections when over the relatively low weight threshold.

I have been getting ON inspections on my truck and trailer anyway. I have thorough inspections done each spring for safety so I pay a little more to get the yellow stickers - just to be legal if I towed (a light trailer) without having the camper on. I guess now I am required to do those and must up my RGW significantly when I renew my permit. That costs much more than the annual inspections, by the way.

The exemptions from CVOR, daily inspections, and trip reports still apply as long as your truck's GVWR is 6000kg or less and it has the original OEM box or replacement of same. I have no idea if that exempts you from pulling into weigh scales and I hope to keep sailing past them without incident. If I drive in they'd probably punish me for my perceived stupidity.

I have recorded the sections, paragraphs, etc. of the relevant references if anyone is interested. I'll carry it with me just in case I get into it with an inspector - not that I expect having facts on my side to help much.

Anyone have any specific knowledge to support or modify the above understanding?

...Fred

[joebedford]

Commutator wrote:
Joe, you must have a very big 5W and/or heavy toys in a TH. You probably know with a class G license you can go up to 24250 lbs in total between truck and 5W. With that 3500 it must leave you about 15000 lbs for the 5W - of actual weight, not GVWR. So if you decide to downsize to drop the class A license you could still have a pretty big 5W at 15000 lbs. Sorry to jump between lbs and kg. I think in lbs and just use kg with reference to regulations.

Yeah, it's big:

Truck 9200lbs
Trailer 18720lbs

Combine 27920lbs

[Commutator]

Joe, you must have a very big 5W and/or heavy toys in a TH. You probably know with a class G license you can go up to 24250 lbs in total between truck and 5W. With that 3500 it must leave you about 15000 lbs for the 5W - of actual weight, not GVWR. So if you decide to downsize to drop the class A license you could still have a pretty big 5W at 15000 lbs. Sorry to jump between lbs and kg. I think in lbs and just use kg with reference to regulations.

[John___Angela]

Commutator wrote:
John & Angela, I have read that there are reciprocity agreements among most provinces and states which include driver licensing. If your license makes you legal to drive your rig in your home province you are almost certainly legal in other provinces and states.

I went back to the regulations to see if I could find anything. It appears there are reciprocity agreements with other provinces that exclude out-of-province trucks from Ontario permitting requirements. I don't see how that helps with operating rules though, like RV exemptions from trip reports, CVOR, etc. I'm just trying to figure out Ontario first!! We travel into many provinces and states. With the camper on the truck I just hope they continue to ignore me. I have no idea if I'm legal or not. I can't learn all the rules of all the jurisdictions so I pay close attention to the safety of my rig and don't worry about the legality of it when out-of-province.

...Fred

makes sense. Thank you.

[joebedford]

Commutator wrote:
No yellow sticker is required and no class A license is required if a fiver RV is over 4600kg and you're still under your 11000kg class G vehicle limit.

Unfortunately my fiver is NOT - today I got my nag from MTO for my annual physical and knowledge test for my Class A license. For a non-professional driver like me who does maybe 10,000km in a year, I'm starting to think that the Class A just isn't worth it.

[Reddog1]

Fred, you have expressed my thoughts. Hopefully, we will have no problems.

Can you imagine how difficult it is for law enforcement to know all of the reciprocity agreements with other provinces (and states)?

Wayne

[Commutator]

John & Angela, I have read that there are reciprocity agreements among most provinces and states which include driver licensing. If your license makes you legal to drive your rig in your home province you are almost certainly legal in other provinces and states.

I went back to the regulations to see if I could find anything. It appears there are reciprocity agreements with other provinces that exclude out-of-province trucks from Ontario permitting requirements. I don't see how that helps with operating rules though, like RV exemptions from trip reports, CVOR, etc. I'm just trying to figure out Ontario first!! We travel into many provinces and states. With the camper on the truck I just hope they continue to ignore me. I have no idea if I'm legal or not. I can't learn all the rules of all the jurisdictions so I pay close attention to the safety of my rig and don't worry about the legality of it when out-of-province.

...Fred

[Reddog1]

I read so much of this stuff, I have come to realize many people only read every other word, then spread misinformation due to that. Personally, I value the knowledge available on the Forums and do my best to avoid misinformation.

When the lawmakers state "make us more consistent with other states and provinces" I seldom see that as true. They add more laws, but seldom remove any.I am not sure all laws are good for all locals. Different parts of the country have different needs and circumstances. To be honest, I think most of our laws are created by bureaucrats, and most are not well thought out.

I apologize if my comments are taking your thread off topic.

Wayne

[Commutator]

Wayne, I presumed people would realize that Ontario is in Canada but it hadn't even occurred to me to point out the rules in Canada vary by province. Good point. I've always just assumed that they vary by state in the USA too. I know for several of the changes Ontario has made they state it is to make us more consistent with other states and provinces. Hopefully they're all working in this direction.

...Fred

[Reddog1]

I think it is important to note the OP has to do with Canada, not the USA. It is my understanding, that in Canada, each province has its own laws, rules, and regulations on motor vehicles. This is definitely true in the USA.

I point this out so the reader understands laws differ depending on where you are referencing, and they may or may not be true in other provinces or states. With this understanding, misinformation will be reduced.

Wayne

[John___Angela]

Interesting discussion. I will be watching to see how it is done in other provinces. Its fairly straight ahead in BC. Truck weight can not exceed GVWR on the door. There are some farmer exemptions but not for Rec vehicles. Obviously not the case for every state and province. The wolf creek brochure shows a half ton with a wolf creek on it. uh huh. 🙂

I wonder if someone would comment on how out of province trucks are judged in Ontario. If its legal in the persons home province or state is it legal in Ontario. If this is too far off topic please ignore.

Thanks in advance.

[Commutator]

In 2005 that was correct. There was no exemption from log books, etc. The "personal use pick-up" exemption was enacted around 2007 so that would no longer be an issue for you if your GVWR was over 4500kg. BTW, that $181 jumps to $235 this year. If your GVWR was 11000kg it jumps to $638!

The situation for those towing an RV is simpler than those of us with truck campers towing a cargo trailer. I didn't research RV trailers since it doesn't apply to me, but did notice a lot of exemptions for RV trailers in my reading. No yellow sticker is required and no class A license is required if a fiver RV is over 4600kg and you're still under your 11000kg class G vehicle limit.

However I don't remember seeing an RV exemption from including it in RGW - except the generic one when your trailer axles are 2600kg or less. You probably require a higher RGW and a yellow sticker on the truck. I don't know for sure. I just don't remember seeing such an exemption. If your chances of getting stopped are small then it might be cheaper to risk the fine - like many of us have unknowingly been doing.

...Fred

[joebedford]

The only specific knowledge I have is when I bought my 2004 Ram 3500 brand new, I had it registered at GVWR. I got pulled over by the MTO and was asked for my log books, etc. I explained to the officer that I use the truck for my RV (almost) exclusively. He said "If you had your RV, I wouldn't even have looked at you". I lowered my RGW to 4400kg. When I bought my Chev with much higher GVWR I registered it at 4400kg. Even so, I still have to pay $181 per year for license sticker.