RAM EcoDiesel a Flop for Towing

[nomad297]

Here's the lowdown.

Bruce

[Bionic_Man]

So, for the record, the speed limit on that stretch of road is 60 MPH, not 65.

I often see members who routinely claim that they won't go above 55 MPH on the interstate - where they are 20 MPH under the posted speed limit. They are almost universally supported on their ability to drive that speed, mile after mile. Here, the truck that can maintain the posted maximum allowed speed with it's rated capacity virtually every where else is vilified because it is 10 MPH under the speed limit (maximum allowed legal speed) on a short, extreme tretch of road.

Personally, I would rather be able to tow faster over the passes, but there is always a trade off - namely MPG. The EcoDiesel is clearly marketed for those that think MPG is more important than MPH.

[ShinerBock]

jus2shy wrote:

Fair enough, I see your point. However, it is only recently that turbocharged trucks have entered the scene. I think there will be a magnitude change in expectation for towing. Remember, prior to the ecoboosts, all half-tons did slow-down at Ike when towing at maximum weight. Would you still have that de-rating expectation if the ecoboosts never existed and all trucks suffered the same slowing-down issue still?

I did think a lot of tow ratings were rather inflated long before the Ecoboost came to market. However, the Ecoboost did raise the bar and what was acceptable is no longer acceptable anymore. That is just like back in the day a "half ton" only having a payload of half a ton was acceptable, and today it is not. Or how just having a driver and passenger airbag would have given you a 5 star crash test rating 20 years ago, but now it takes more than that to get a 5 star crash test rating. Things change and they should change for the better. This is why I expect more, and what used to be acceptable is not acceptable anymore.

jus2shy wrote:
Even today, HD's are expected to slow down when faced with a steep climb and loaded to full capacity. What SAE J2807 attempts to do is set a universal expectation for minimum Tow performance at maximum load ratings for certain given grades (accelerating, stopping and handling). If things were done your way, all the HD trucks would not be able to meet the 30,000+ lbs tow rating that those duallies have. They would be universally be de-rated. It's also kinda hard to just say "Keep up with the speed limit at whatever grade".

That is fine, I don't think trucks like that should be towing 30,000 lbs in the first place. That should be left to medium duty commercial trucks. This "30,000 lbs towing battle" that Ford and Ram are doing is senseless which is why I applaud GM for staying out of it. Also, the J2807 only sets the maximum a manufacturer can rate its truck, it says nothing about rating it below that rating. Case in point is the two trucks in question. It is blatantly clear that the 2.7L Ecoboost can tow more than the Ram Ecodiesel going by the J2807. However, Ford set its tow rating lower than what Ram did with the 3.0L Ecodiesel. Why is that? Maybe Ford and Ram have a difference of opinion on what is "acceptable" when towing.

I am also not a fan of the J2807 either. I think it should be more strict on it speed requirements and bring them up to a more acceptable speed limit like at least 55 mph.

jus2shy wrote:
So where to draw the line? 1/2 tons versus 3/4 and up tons? It's obvious that this RAM would not meet your towing minimum, but for the fuel miser that doesn't care about slowing down, it may meet theirs. People vote with their wallets and as long as people want a certain product (or not) the companies will respond appropriately.

I draw the line with any manufacturer that rates their non commercial truck to tow more than what it can safely tow at a reasonable speed on any and every US highway. If it can't at least keep up with the trailering speed limit, then the tow rating needs to be lowered.

[ShinerBock]

carringb wrote:
Would you apply this logic to commercial trucks as well? I mean, why not? They do many more miles than RV towing trucks do. I imagine we would have to start equipping commercial trucks with dual engines, or maybe even turbine drives, to be able to pull legal weights (105,000 pounds in most western states) up 7% grades which are also common out here. Or maybe they should lower truck weight limits so we can have 2-3x the trucks on the road, just so some cars aren't momentarily inconvenienced.

I don't care about what a commercial truck does because I don't or will ever drive a commercial truck. Also, most people that drive commercial trucks don't own them, their company that they work for do and they probably have a different criteria for what their truck needs to do. If you want to put apply my expectations to commercial trucks then go ahead, but I don't care about them since I will never drive them.

[jus2shy]

ShinerBock wrote:

...snip...

This is about my expectations and how I believe any non commercial truck should be able to do the speed limit when towing their max rated weight up any hill in the US or have its tow rating lowered to a weight it can.

Fair enough, I see your point. However, it is only recently that turbocharged trucks have entered the scene. I think there will be a magnitude change in expectation for towing. Remember, prior to the ecoboosts, all half-tons did slow-down at Ike when towing at maximum weight. Would you still have that de-rating expectation if the ecoboosts never existed and all trucks suffered the same slowing-down issue still?

Even today, HD's are expected to slow down when faced with a steep climb and loaded to full capacity. What SAE J2807 attempts to do is set a universal expectation for minimum Tow performance at maximum load ratings for certain given grades (accelerating, stopping and handling). If things were done your way, all the HD trucks would not be able to meet the 30,000+ lbs tow rating that those duallies have. They would be universally be de-rated. It's also kinda hard to just say "Keep up with the speed limit at whatever grade". Speed limits and grade combinations vary... a lot. So SAE J2807 specifies specific routes and the expected tow performance of that given route. For a quick summary of what it is, here's the clicky and another good link to the specifics Clicky2

So where to draw the line? 1/2 tons versus 3/4 and up tons? It's obvious that this RAM would not meet your towing minimum, but for the fuel miser that doesn't care about slowing down, it may meet theirs. People vote with their wallets and as long as people want a certain product (or not) the companies will respond appropriately.

[ShinerBock]

APT wrote:

325hp vs. 240hp.

No one expects the Ram Ecodiesel to be the quickest. It offers a balance of power/fuel efficiency/cost that is unique. If that doesn't meet your needs, move on.

I made my response and moved on, but people keep quoted me in response to my statements so I ma defending them. Although I am not talking about it being the quickest, I am talking about being able to tow its rated when doing at least the speed limit or have its tow rating lowered to a tow rating it can do the speed limit with.

Let me take the brands out of this equation.

Truck A with a higher tow rating was not able to keep speed towing 7,200 lbs up that hill, but truck B that has a lower tow rating than truck A does was able to tow the same 7,200 lbs load up the hill keeping the speed limit with ease and not not close to its max rpm. No one thinks that the manufacturer of truck A is a bit optimistic on how much it can reasonably tow?

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Tystevens wrote:

Yep, I'd agree with all of this. I wonder how many trucks can hold 55 mph towing near their max up that hill?

The Ecodiesel didn't hold 55 mph. It was at 50 mph and the speed limit was 60 mph. Although there are plenty of trucks that were able to tow near their max tow rating while keeping within 10 mph of the speed limit going up that hill.


The 2014 F150 3.5 Ecoboost did it towing 10,000 lbs
https://youtu.be/QR-gMWRzvOg

The 2014 F150 Raptor was able to do it towing 8,000 lbs(which is it's max)
https://youtu.be/TeSFP7gyjnk

The 2015 Lincoln Navigator 3.5L Ecoboost was able to do it towing 7,000 lbs
https://youtu.be/Q3fjr1G60G8

The 2015 GMC 3500 6.6L diesel was able to do it towing 15,000 lbs
https://youtu.be/UuRg8ZkrxKM

[Hannibal]

APT wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
If the F150 2.7L can hold the speed limit then why can't the Ram Ecodiesel?

325hp vs. 240hp.

No one expects the Ram Ecodiesel to be the quickest. It offers a balance of power/fuel efficiency/cost that is unique. If that doesn't meet your needs, move on.

What? The higher horsepower, lower torque engine pulled the load faster? Say it ain't so!

Nothing melted or broke. That's a win!

[carringb]

ShinerBock wrote:
Regardless of the brand I think a truck should be able to tow its tow rating doing at least the speed limit of any US highway even up hill or it should lower its tow rating.

Would you apply this logic to commercial trucks as well? I mean, why not? They do many more miles than RV towing trucks do. I imagine we would have to start equipping commercial trucks with dual engines, or maybe even turbine drives, to be able to pull legal weights (105,000 pounds in most western states) up 7% grades which are also common out here. Or maybe they should lower truck weight limits so we can have 2-3x the trucks on the road, just so some cars aren't momentarily inconvenienced.

[ShinerBock]

jus2shy wrote:
Ok, let's stick with the Ford brand. So for the 2009 to 2010 5.4 equipped trucks that had the 11000 pound tow rating, should they had been derated? I owned one. I can tell you those trucks would had struggled more than the ecodiesel in the same pull.

Yes, those trucks should have been derated and I have even stated the same back then. Although I don't know why you would bring that up unless you are trying to make this a brand issue by deflecting the current topic. As I said before, this as nothing to do with a brand. I am loyal to myself and my expectations, not to a brand that doesn't give tow shnits about me. Regardless of the brand I think a truck should be able to tow its tow rating doing at least the speed limit of any US highway even up hill or it should lower its tow rating. I also think a truck's payload and tow rating should be on every window sticker.

jus2shy wrote:
Should Chevy have to derate because their truck keeps shifting between gears and doesn't hold 65mph up that same hill with a similar load?

Yes, it should lower its tow rating if it can't handle the load and has to drop down to 45 mph.

jus2shy wrote:
RAM has always said that if someone wants more tow performance, they would buy a 2500, different marketing strategy from Ford.

It is not about of wanting more performance. It is about a truck being able to do what a manufacturer states it can do. I am not about making excuses or expecting less from any manufacturer. People can keep expecting less from their favorite makes, but I expect more. I expect that if a manufacturer gives their non commercial truck a tow rating, then it should be able to pull that tow rating doing the allowed trailering speed limit on any highway in the US and Canada. If not, then they need to lessen the tow rating to something it to a weight it can pull and do the speed limit on.

Yes, my expectations are high, but the F150 2.7L EB in that test was able to do it so what is the excuse for the Ram 3.0L which had a higher tow rating?

jus2shy wrote:
In the end, it is a different truck meeting a different set of demands with more prioritization on fuel economy versus tow acceleration Performance.

That is fine, just lower the tow ratings to a reasonable number to where you can at least keep up with traffic when towing instead of giving it some number it can't do keeping the speed limit just so you can say it is "best in class". Again, this is not about Ford versus Chevy versus Ram. This is about my expectations and how I believe any non commercial truck should be able to do the speed limit when towing their max rated weight up any hill in the US or have its tow rating lowered to a weight it can.

[The_Mad_Norsky]

Tystevens wrote:

Bionic Man wrote:
On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is.

Yep, I'd agree with all of this. I wonder how many trucks can hold 55 mph towing near their max up that hill? I've always looked at tow ratings as having to do more with chassis capability and longevity, not a certification of how fast I can tow up ANY mountain out there.

Well said to both of you.

Good grief, it is a tough pull. Anyone who thinks a vehicle is gonna maintain speed all the way up is just being delusional.

Holding WOT (or wide open throttle :B ) on the vehicle in question all the way up must have really caused EGT's to go high.

Then again, on the gas engined eco boost, I wonder how high the EGT's got on that one?????

I will admit total ignorance about the Ford eco boost, but it is a turbo'd engine, isn't it???????????

[Tystevens]

Bionic Man wrote:
On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is.

Yep, I'd agree with all of this. I wonder how many trucks can hold 55 mph towing near their max up that hill? I've always looked at tow ratings as having to do more with chassis capability and longevity, not a certification of how fast I can tow up ANY mountain out there.

[Bionic_Man]

Last I checked, RAM was selling as many EcoDiesels as they can build - WAY more than they anticipated.

Is it the best towing engine out there? Nope. Under these extreme conditions, is the 2.7 EB a better towing engine? Yes.

Under what I would consider normal towing conditions, with the market RAM is going after - someone who occasionally tows something other than a large RV, the Eco Diesel is a good option. If towing is your primary concern, buy something else. RAM says as much on their website.

On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is.

[APT]

ShinerBock wrote:
If the F150 2.7L can hold the speed limit then why can't the Ram Ecodiesel?

325hp vs. 240hp.

No one expects the Ram Ecodiesel to be the quickest. It offers a balance of power/fuel efficiency/cost that is unique. If that doesn't meet your needs, move on.

[jus2shy]

ShinerBock wrote:


I am not talking about a commercial trucks like Peterbilts. I also don't care about the SAE certification either. In my opinion, the 30 mph requirement is too low. Also, the SAE J2807 is not law and the manufacturers do not have to abide by them. They just use them as a standard of a maximum rating a truck can be rated for.

However, a manufacturer can still rate it lower then that maximum. Case in point is that Ford 2.7L Ecoboost. It will out perform that Ecodiesel in every way yet Ford gave it a lower tow rating then what Ram gave the Ecodiesel. Why? Maybe because Ford does not consider not being able to at least do the speed limit towing. Maybe their standards for towing is a bit higher. What ever the case maybe, it still stands that the F150 2.7L Ecoboost that Ford gave a lower tow rating to will easily hold the rated speed limit while the 1500 3.0L Ecodiesel that Ram gave a higher tow rating to is barely able to hold 10 mpg of the speed limit. If the F150 2.7L can hold the speed limit then why can't the Ram Ecodiesel?

Regardless of some SAE standard or not, it is still unacceptable to me and is a failure in my opinion. If my 2014 Ram 2500 CTD was only able to do 30 mph going up that hill towing 80% of it's rated weight, I would be sending it back to Ram asking them WTF. Unlike some, I don't make excuses for a brand like fanboys do. I also do not change or lower my expectations just so that a favorite brand fits that criteria. I have my reasonable expectations and if a truck manufacturer can't meet them then I will find one that will. In this case, the F150 2.7L met my expectations by being able to tow the rating it was given while maintaining the speed limit. The Ram Ecodiesel on the other hand.... didn't.

Ok, let's stick with the Ford brand. So for the 2009 to 2010 5.4 equipped trucks that had the 11000 pound tow rating, should they had been derated? I owned one. I can tell you those trucks would had struggled more than the ecodiesel in the same pull. The ecoboost is a very recent motor and I am a proponent for boosted engines when towing at altitude. So if you don't make excuses, what was ford's excuse? Should Chevy have to derate because their truck keeps shifting between gears and doesn't hold 65mph up that same hill with a similar load? However on low altitudes, it will match the 2.7. Ford has a marketing edge in tow aceleration performance with the ecoboost line no doubt. But then I am not a fanboy, I just recognize what the vehicle was designed to achieve And it does just what it should. RAM has always said that if someone wants more tow performance, they would buy a 2500, different marketing strategy from Ford.

In the end, it is a different truck meeting a different set of demands with more prioritization on fuel economy versus tow acceleration Performance.

[boocoodinkydow]

I think some have lost sight of the fact that this small displacement diesel was initially engineered to propel a Cadillac. With the truck quickly replacing the "soccer mom van" of yesterday as a daily driver, fiat/chrysler recognized the market & has jumped in front of the trend with the marriage of this fuel efficient engine in the most popular vehicle class in the country. Is it the perfect tow vehicle? Not by a long shot, but sales figures point to the fact it is an overwhelming success in the the market area for which it was intended. Is it capable of successfully towing small & intermediate sized TT's? Absolutely & more economically the any other truck being produced today. On the brand specific forums you'll find numerous accounts of owners doing just that! For those consistently dragging uber heavy loads up steep inclines, there's fortunately more appropriate choices on the market.

In the FWIW category, tests performed by Green Diesel Engineering found that inability to maintain a consistent speed under extreme conditions is NOT due to insufficient power. Not that it changes the end results of this test, but it seems mama chrysler has cheaped out on the cooling systems of the Ecodiesel with a less than stellar sized radiator. When approaching high temps the engine enters a protection mode by defueling with obvious results. In normal operating conditions that 99% of us experience, the torque of these engines is there, it's real & it's capable!

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

I would have loved to see this "test" done with 90 to 100 degree ambient air temps like I tow in all the time on my vacation.

I was kinda shocked to see the EOT start heading to the moon on another test with snow on the ground. :E