Single or Double Axle?

[Calisdad]

Thinking of getting a TT after many years in a 21' Class C.

Pretty sure I understand the general differences but not having pulled one I'd like some opinions/feedback.

Can a single be just fine or would some of you just not even consider it? Why?

I might add that we haven't gone the TT route before because we like to get off the beaten path. In fact campgrounds are not on our list of favorite places.

thanks-
C-dad

[Huntindog]

CharlesinGA wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
I do not worry about the cost of good tires. I have found cheap ones to be more expensive, and just an overall pain.
4 Michelin XPS RIBS are around 1300.00. But that has gotten me flawless performance since I made the switch in 2006

Depending on the size you use, you may have to start looking again. According to the Michelin web site, the XPS RIB tire is only made in four sizes, with the other sizes being discontinued. Only ones still made are LT215/85R16/E, LT225/75R16/E, LT235/85R16/E, and LT245/75R16/E.

Charles

That is nothing new. Been that way since i started using them back in 2006.

I do not see size as an insurmountable obstacle. None of my TTs started out with any of those sizes. I did what was needed to make them fit. TTs generally are pretty standard in the axle area as far as spring length goes.. That is the one thing that would be really hard to change. The rest of it is not too bad.

Car and truck owners change tire sizes all the time. In fact many (discount for sure) tire dealers talk about how to go about it on their website.
The issues are a little different with TTs, but it can be done just the same.

For some reason though, many think that the tire size their TT came with,,,, is what they are stuck with.

Many here have found other LTs available in sizes that will fit. By the time I was done with STs, I was in no mood to go halfway. The Michelin RIBs are considered to be the gold standard. So I made the one time mods needed to make them fit. Best tire decision I ever made.

[CharlesinGA]

Huntindog wrote:
I do not worry about the cost of good tires. I have found cheap ones to be more expensive, and just an overall pain.
4 Michelin XPS RIBS are around 1300.00. But that has gotten me flawless performance since I made the switch in 2006

Depending on the size you use, you may have to start looking again. According to the Michelin web site, the XPS RIB tire is only made in four sizes, with the other sizes being discontinued. Only ones still made are LT215/85R16/E, LT225/75R16/E, LT235/85R16/E, and LT245/75R16/E.

Charles

[Huntindog]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

profdant139 wrote:
Huntingdog, you're not saying that you are still using tires made in 2006 in 2019, right? Just checking . . . . 😉

Absolutely not!
Since I now run LTs, I get to replace them due to AGE! What a concept. None of my MANY sets of STs made it to their second birthday.

I replace my Michelins every 5 years. Michelin says you can go up to 10 years.... That may be true, as the XPS ribs are made to be retreaded.
But at 5 years, they still look great and have a ton of tread left. So I buy new ones, and sell the old ones on Craig's list. They sell fast for good money, which helps defray the cost of the new ones.

I am now on my third set. Not a single tire issue of any type with the RIBS. I no longer pay much attention to the TT tires. They just flat out work like I pay them to do.

Back in my ST tire days (of which I owned too many sets to remember) they were an obsession, as many here will tell you that the reason for the failures is lack of care.... I bought into that for too long, believing that ST tires needed to have extra special care to live... I gave more than a fair shake to prove themselves.
They just kept failing.

I am watching the latest generation of ST tires, to see if they finally have it right.... But there is no way I will go back to STs.
The problem for me, is that the companies making these new STs are the same ones that made the old ones, telling us how good they were... And this is not the first time they made a change, telling us that they were much improved,,,, then everyone rushed out to buy them.... Then the failure reports started coming in....
Watching this play out on the forum has been study in human nature.
First everyone seemed to defend the ST tire failures, making up every excuse in the book for them. Then the Maxxis and Carlise tires made upgrades and many of those same people rushed out to buy them. Now we have yet another new Carlise, and a new Goodyear, and the rush is on again.
Kinda like watching Lemmings charge over a clif.

So I am done handing those companies my money on a promise that they are now doing better.

I have found a solution that works, and will stick with it.

And then of course you have people who have owned multiple trailers and have run nothing but ST tires, and have never had an issue, who do not feel the need to have a tire fetish, or a case of OCTD.

Personally I have ran the OEM ST tires on new campers without issue until replaced due to age / wear or the trailer was sold. We have used ST tires on heavy equipment trailers for awhile, and they're typically some generic brand our tire guy had on the shelf, or what came OEM on those trailers. Seeing they were typically operated by our carpenters, laborers, or finishers whose main focus is to get back to the shop as quickly as possible in the afternoon, so happy hour is not missed, I am certain any issues we have had were due to the person driving the rig, associated with taking them on construction sites, or a road hazard.

My observation is the only place ST tires are an issue is on the RV board. Joe blow buys his first RV, overloads it, drives 85 mph everywhere, and loves to ride on the debris filled road shoulders while bashing into some curbs. Then it's off to these boards to blame the tires LOL.

Not so much in the rest of the trailer towing world and certainly not at the NHTSA where recalls on ST tires are few and far between. A lot of the spew on these boards goes back 10+ years ago to one certain ST tire recall which is ancient history, but whose legacy stuck to these RV boards like a bad case of the clap. Once that was set in the mindset of the RV board and its main demographic, there you have it. Especially so at this one.

Last year alone over 400K towable RVs went on the road and everyone had ST tires. 99.9% still do and will have them in the future, as do the ones sold in years prior. That's just RV type trailers. What about other types? Where are the massive recalls?

User error in the vast majority of cases.

Ok, I don't do the tire threads much and this did not start as one LOL. That's my bi yearly take on it. Love those Torkflexes.

Ralph you are hilarious.
You constantly bash the RV industry for putting out poor quality cheap junk.....
And then go and say that they use the best tires available!:B

Are you serious? Making a funny? Or do you just like to be contrary?

Where did I say the RV Industry uses the best quality tires available? What I said was I don't buy into that ST tires are **** as general rule. Many people claim so, but show me the evidence. Pictures of some moronss shredded tire that lost air pressure for who knows why, probably because the idiot clipped a curb then drove 50 miles on a flat until it was a shredded mess and put up a picture on an RV board, then called it a blowout, is not evidence LOL.

BTW the Lionshead Westlake tires on our 17 Rockwood are just fine going into their 4th season. You seem to be bashing the Goodyear Endurance? Personally I have yet to see one single complaint on multiple RV boards about those and they have been on the market for what? 3 year now or close to it?

When I need tires I'll just take it to the tire guy I have been using for years, he'll put 4 ST whateverhehas on it. Might be Goodyear, might be WonTonFoo XL's. That will be the end of it and I'll be at a campground having beers, not obsessing over tires.

With as many of these bad ST tires being used. Lets see.....just last year alone 426,000 towable RVs sold and almost everyone has ST tires. Lets do the math.

426,000 RV sold with 2 ST tires = 852000 ST tires.
But 2/3 were probably tandem axles so lets guess...

That's 1,420,000 ST tires put on the road in 2018 alone, just in the RV industry. Add in utility trailers, horse trailers, dump trailers, etc. etc. etc. Then add 2017, 2016, 2015. etc. That's just new rigs, then add replacement tires.

Where are the NHTSA recalls that should exist because of the millions of ST tires on the road?

Really Ralph, you should read the stuff you write about the RV industry.

I am going to write one word that will make you see red..... Wait for it....... Lippert.

Without fail you will seize any opportunity to bash them.
But the fact is that the vast majority of RVs use Lippert components.. So it simply doesn't square that the industry that you constantly say uses cheap junk, suddenly changes direction when it comes to tires.

And your constant diatribe about the owners with tire failures being at fault..... That is hogwash. You cannot back that up with anything more than your imagination.
As for tire failure reports.... None of my failures were ever reported. I just put new tires on and got on with my trip. I suspect that most everyone does the same.

If you are having good luck with your tires... I am happy for you. If that should ever change, then I and people like me have shown what a solution can be..

As always. Your money. Your choice.

[Huntindog]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

profdant139 wrote:
Huntingdog, you're not saying that you are still using tires made in 2006 in 2019, right? Just checking . . . . 😉

Absolutely not!
Since I now run LTs, I get to replace them due to AGE! What a concept. None of my MANY sets of STs made it to their second birthday.

I replace my Michelins every 5 years. Michelin says you can go up to 10 years.... That may be true, as the XPS ribs are made to be retreaded.
But at 5 years, they still look great and have a ton of tread left. So I buy new ones, and sell the old ones on Craig's list. They sell fast for good money, which helps defray the cost of the new ones.

I am now on my third set. Not a single tire issue of any type with the RIBS. I no longer pay much attention to the TT tires. They just flat out work like I pay them to do.

Back in my ST tire days (of which I owned too many sets to remember) they were an obsession, as many here will tell you that the reason for the failures is lack of care.... I bought into that for too long, believing that ST tires needed to have extra special care to live... I gave more than a fair shake to prove themselves.
They just kept failing.

I am watching the latest generation of ST tires, to see if they finally have it right.... But there is no way I will go back to STs.
The problem for me, is that the companies making these new STs are the same ones that made the old ones, telling us how good they were... And this is not the first time they made a change, telling us that they were much improved,,,, then everyone rushed out to buy them.... Then the failure reports started coming in....
Watching this play out on the forum has been study in human nature.
First everyone seemed to defend the ST tire failures, making up every excuse in the book for them. Then the Maxxis and Carlise tires made upgrades and many of those same people rushed out to buy them. Now we have yet another new Carlise, and a new Goodyear, and the rush is on again.
Kinda like watching Lemmings charge over a clif.

So I am done handing those companies my money on a promise that they are now doing better.

I have found a solution that works, and will stick with it.

And then of course you have people who have owned multiple trailers and have run nothing but ST tires, and have never had an issue, who do not feel the need to have a tire fetish, or a case of OCTD.

Personally I have ran the OEM ST tires on new campers without issue until replaced due to age / wear or the trailer was sold. We have used ST tires on heavy equipment trailers for awhile, and they're typically some generic brand our tire guy had on the shelf, or what came OEM on those trailers. Seeing they were typically operated by our carpenters, laborers, or finishers whose main focus is to get back to the shop as quickly as possible in the afternoon, so happy hour is not missed, I am certain any issues we have had were due to the person driving the rig, associated with taking them on construction sites, or a road hazard.

My observation is the only place ST tires are an issue is on the RV board. Joe blow buys his first RV, overloads it, drives 85 mph everywhere, and loves to ride on the debris filled road shoulders while bashing into some curbs. Then it's off to these boards to blame the tires LOL.

Not so much in the rest of the trailer towing world and certainly not at the NHTSA where recalls on ST tires are few and far between. A lot of the spew on these boards goes back 10+ years ago to one certain ST tire recall which is ancient history, but whose legacy stuck to these RV boards like a bad case of the clap. Once that was set in the mindset of the RV board and its main demographic, there you have it. Especially so at this one.

Last year alone over 400K towable RVs went on the road and everyone had ST tires. 99.9% still do and will have them in the future, as do the ones sold in years prior. That's just RV type trailers. What about other types? Where are the massive recalls?

User error in the vast majority of cases.

Ok, I don't do the tire threads much and this did not start as one LOL. That's my bi yearly take on it. Love those Torkflexes.

Ralph you are hilarious.
You constantly bash the RV industry for putting out poor quality cheap junk.....
And then go and say that they use the best tires available!:B

Are you serious? Making a funny? Or do you just like to be contrary?

Your facts are wrong anyways. Not every towable RV comes from the factory with ST tires. Some of the better (more expensive) ones come with LTs, either standard or as an option..... You always forget to mention this, and I always gotta remind you.

Facts are facts. You can try to raise your voice to try to erase them, beat your chest, insult people etc.... But the facts will still be the facts.... And the ST tire facts just are not good. NHSTA ST tire standards are lower, much lower than those for LTs.... That fact will not go away, no matter how much you may want it to.

[Lynnmor]

Grit dog wrote:
All this "ST tires are junk and LT tires are the shiznit" talk goes 100% out the window as soon as you step down from 16" rims to anything smaller...because there basically are not any LT tires with the load ratings needed for those rim sizes.

Been running these instead of the ST205/75-15 junk for almost 10 years. I did get a nail in one. Goodyear Wrangler

[Grit_dog]

All this "ST tires are junk and LT tires are the shiznit" talk goes 100% out the window as soon as you step down from 16" rims to anything smaller...because there basically are not any LT tires with the load ratings needed for those rim sizes.

Agreed, this is mostly an RVeeer thing and some boaters. Those that use trailers as tools and not recreational items are like the honey badger. They don't give a ___.
If it makes the ST tire crowd feel better, we beat the living snot out of 16" ST tires on our deckover trailers. Aside from road/jobsite hazards I can't recall any of those tires coming apart without some help form a piece of rebar or similar.

[Calisdad]

colliehauler wrote:
I could see that being true at low speeds but wonder about highway speeds. At 65 mph that would only be a second or less for both wheels to articulate.

I may very well be out of my depth here but I think we may be talking about two different axle types and will keep in mind when looking.

There is dual axle where two separate axles are mounted to the trailer frame and there is tandem axle where two axles are mounted to an articulation member.

Dual axles would hit the bump twice and tandem axles would indeed share the impact of the bump.

Or do I have them exactly backward?

[Ralph_Cramden]

X

[Huntindog]

profdant139 wrote:
Huntingdog, you're not saying that you are still using tires made in 2006 in 2019, right? Just checking . . . . 😉

Absolutely not!
Since I now run LTs, I get to replace them due to AGE! What a concept. None of my MANY sets of STs made it to their second birthday.

I replace my Michelins every 5 years. Michelin says you can go up to 10 years.... That may be true, as the XPS ribs are made to be retreaded.
But at 5 years, they still look great and have a ton of tread left. So I buy new ones, and sell the old ones on Craig's list. They sell fast for good money, which helps defray the cost of the new ones.

I am now on my third set. Not a single tire issue of any type with the RIBS. I no longer pay much attention to the TT tires. They just flat out work like I pay them to do.

Back in my ST tire days (of which I owned too many sets to remember) they were an obsession, as many here will tell you that the reason for the failures is lack of care.... I bought into that for too long, believing that ST tires needed to have extra special care to live... I gave more than a fair shake to prove themselves.
They just kept failing.

I am watching the latest generation of ST tires, to see if they finally have it right.... But there is no way I will go back to STs.
The problem for me, is that the companies making these new STs are the same ones that made the old ones, telling us how good they were... And this is not the first time they made a change, telling us that they were much improved,,,, then everyone rushed out to buy them.... Then the failure reports started coming in....
Watching this play out on the forum has been study in human nature.
First everyone seemed to defend the ST tire failures, making up every excuse in the book for them. Then the Maxxis and Carlise tires made upgrades and many of those same people rushed out to buy them. Now we have yet another new Carlise, and a new Goodyear, and the rush is on again.
Kinda like watching Lemmings charge over a clif.

So I am done handing those companies my money on a promise that they are now doing better.

I have found a solution that works, and will stick with it.

[profdant139]

Huntingdog, you're not saying that you are still using tires made in 2006 in 2019, right? Just checking . . . . 😉

[Huntindog]

colliehauler wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

colliehauler wrote:

colliehauler wrote:
I could see that being true at low speeds but wonder about highway speeds. At 65 mph that would only be a second or less for both wheels to articulate.

I used the speed distance calculator and both wheels would have to articulate in .0104895 of a second at 65 mph.

I have watched many trailers hit the speed bumps in front of our building. Though this is at low speeds, the articulation is obvious. Now if you are hitting speed bumps at 65 MPH.... That is going to be a problem, no matter what the axle configuration is.:B

Just saying most trailer's are towed at highway speeds where the advantage of tandem wheels is mitigated. I've never owned a single axle TT, just boat trailers with 13 inch tires. The largest advantage of a tandem (speculation) is the stability when parked. I have thought about a 17 foot Wolf Pup TH for overnights in remote places with a single axle. Personally anything larger I would want tandem wheels. A single axle it would be cheap to upgrade to a heavier axle and tires for off road.

At highway speeds, the bumps should be quite a bit smaller. So the amount of articulation is much smaller. Often we forget and leave stuff on the counter. It rides just fine over some pretty bad roads.... I do not believe the DA advantage goes away at high speeds
As an related observation: I have done quite a bit of axle work on all of my TTs. When replacing the spring bushings, the center bushing on the Equalizer ALWAYS has the most wear... And by a lot. So it is getting a workout. Someone would have to put a high speed camera on it for a definitive answer, but the evidence in the bushings wear is consistent with my opinion.

I do not worry about the cost of good tires. I have found cheap ones to be more expensive, and just an overall pain.
4 Michelin XPS RIBS are around 1300.00. But that has gotten me flawless performance since I made the switch in 2006

[colliehauler]

Huntindog wrote:

colliehauler wrote:

colliehauler wrote:
I could see that being true at low speeds but wonder about highway speeds. At 65 mph that would only be a second or less for both wheels to articulate.

I used the speed distance calculator and both wheels would have to articulate in .0104895 of a second at 65 mph.

I have watched many trailers hit the speed bumps in front of our building. Though this is at low speeds, the articulation is obvious. Now if you are hitting speed bumps at 65 MPH.... That is going to be a problem, no matter what the axle configuration is.:B

Just saying most trailer's are towed at highway speeds where the advantage of tandem wheels is mitigated. I've never owned a single axle TT, just boat trailers with 13 inch tires. The largest advantage of a tandem (speculation) is the stability when parked. I have thought about a 17 foot Wolf Pup TH for overnights in remote places with a single axle. Personally anything larger I would want tandem wheels. A single axle it would be cheap to upgrade to a heavier axle and tires for off road.

[Huntindog]

colliehauler wrote:

colliehauler wrote:
I could see that being true at low speeds but wonder about highway speeds. At 65 mph that would only be a second or less for both wheels to articulate.

I used the speed distance calculator and both wheels would have to articulate in .0104895 of a second at 65 mph.

I have watched many trailers hit the speed bumps in front of our building. Though this is at low speeds, the articulation is obvious. Now if you are hitting speed bumps at 65 MPH.... That is going to be a problem, no matter what the axle configuration is.:B

[colliehauler]

colliehauler wrote:
I could see that being true at low speeds but wonder about highway speeds. At 65 mph that would only be a second or less for both wheels to articulate.

I used the speed distance calculator and both wheels would have to articulate in .0104895 of a second at 65 mph.