The China-Bomb debate Put to rest

[4X4Dodger]

Almost every week or more a thread appears with someone with a tire question. And just as predictably the China Bomb experts come out and start decrying all Chinese made tires.

Then usually they recommend MAXXIS tires. Maxxis are held in almost religious high regard by some here and they claim are NOT made in China.

This is usually followed by several others who also recommend Maxxis.

I personally have no doubt that Maxxis are good tires. As are Goodyears, Kumho, Cooper and many other brands. But I don't beleive they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other.

I have tried in many of these posts to bring some perspective on Chinese manufacturing which I know quite well from my professional life. I also try to bring some facts to bear on the subject.

So in an effort to arm myself with more facts I was doing some research on Tire Manufacturing in China and came across a very interesting article in a Tire Industry Publication Called Tire Review.

The chart below appears in that article clearly showing that MAXXIS is part of one of the largest tire manufacturers in China. Note also the inclusion of several western tire manufacturers who also manufacture in China.

From Tire Review Magazine 10/1/2015 David Shaw



Now for a little context: The article I cite was written about the tire Industry IN China ie it centered mostly on the Chinese Domestic market. It did cover the issue of exports also. But it's main focus was the Domestic Chinese market.

The article goes on to explain that there is currently a shakedown taking place in the Chinese Tire industry with some new US tariffs being applied (due to alleged Dumping) and new regulations on the industry by the Government of China. Here is a quote:

"U.S. duties aside, probably the biggest factor in the Chinese tire industry crisis is the slew of new legislation being issued by the Chinese government and managed through the CRIA. China is set to become the most-heavily regulated country in the world for tire manufacturing."

and...According to the article China dominates the GLOBAL market for tires.

I hope this takes a few steps towards normalizing the debate on this site about China Bombs and how great Maxxis are.

The FACT is that some great tires are made by many companies in China, by Chinese, American and European companies.

So please lets just stop the China Bomb rants and stop encouraging folks who have tire questions to replace all the tires that came on their new trailers. It's a waste of money and there is no evidence of any kind that it is either necessary or desirable.

As you can see those revered MAXXIS are owned by a Chinese firm and are manufactured in China as well as some other Asian countries.

[rbpru]

Let's see, on the one hand people buy STs because they are cheaper than LTs and they cannot see the value of spending more money for the LTs.

On the other hand, the tire folks make more profit selling the cheaper, far lower volume, STs over the LTs. They are perfectly willing to be sued by our litigious society.

Not exactly how capitalism usually works.

Not to mention the fact that not all tire makers make STs.

As I stated before, P tires do what they are designed to do, STs do what they are designed to do and LTs do what they are designed to do.

If you think you are going to exceed the ratings of the tire, do not blame the tire maker if it fails. It is easy enough to go with the tire YOU think will work. I am sure the TT dealer will retrofit almost any tire combo you wish to pay for.

There is no doubt that some folk feel "safer" with LTs. Likewise, millions of TT owners never give their STs a second thought.

[4X4Dodger]

I notice that none of the Lt Advocates/Beleivers or the "China Bomb" brigade have taken me up on my offer posted up thread.

Decide which expert you will believe and I will do my best to get them into this discussion.

This is a put up or shut up sort of challenge. (meant in a good way 🙂 )

[4X4Dodger]

Yabbut wrote:

rbpru wrote:
While the manufactures do not object to the use of LTs for TT service. I have yet to see a manufacturer's advertisement suggesting they are a better choice than STs.

In fact I have never seen an add even recommending them for TT use.

But let me guess, it is part of the great tire conspiracy.

I don't think it's a conspiracy -- it's just business. My theory is that STs have a higher profit margin than LTs, so it would not be sound business practice to drive customers to less profitable products.

I believe that ST tires are more likely to fail in "normal" service than the LT equivalent, which increases replacement sales. As long as they can continue to convince customers that ST failures were really the customers' fault, and that ST tires are better suited for trailer use (than LTs), they can continue to maximize profits.

I could be wrong, but I will continue to feel more comfortable towing LT-equipped trailers.

I think your basic premise is flawed: By their sheer numbers and the economics of scale LT tires have to be more profitable that ST's which are made in much fewer quantity than LT Tires.

And...there is absolutely NO data from any source that indicates the failure rate of ST Tires is any greater or lesser that LT's.

There IS plenty of data that does show that people mistreat and misuse their ST tires and the NHTSA addresses this. A lot of the rules they have promulgated are directed at Consumer information and education especially as it pertains to Proper Inflation.

And according to the NHTSA the VAST MAJORITY of tire failures are due to TWO issues: Overloading and Underinflation.

[Yabbut]

rbpru wrote:
While the manufactures do not object to the use of LTs for TT service. I have yet to see a manufacturer's advertisement suggesting they are a better choice than STs.

In fact I have never seen an add even recommending them for TT use.

But let me guess, it is part of the great tire conspiracy.

I don't think it's a conspiracy -- it's just business. My theory is that STs have a higher profit margin than LTs, so it would not be sound business practice to drive customers to less profitable products.

I believe that ST tires are more likely to fail in "normal" service than the LT equivalent, which increases replacement sales. As long as they can continue to convince customers that ST failures were really the customers' fault, and that ST tires are better suited for trailer use (than LTs), they can continue to maximize profits.

I could be wrong, but I will continue to feel more comfortable towing LT-equipped trailers.

[Huntindog]

rbpru wrote:
While the manufactures do not object to the use of LTs for TT service. I have yet to see a manufacturer's advertisement suggesting they are a better choice than STs.

In fact I have never seen an add even recommending them for TT use.

But let me guess, it is part of the great tire conspiracy.

People pay for advertising to sell a product that will make them more money. It has little to nothing to do with that product being the "best" for the job. It is all about the money.

Sometimes a product has such a good reputation that advertising is not needed. This can be the case in more expensive items. Those that are wanting better stuff, are already buying it. Those that want the most "affordable" option will not be swayed by advertising.

It is not about a "conspiracy" It is about profit.

It is easy for outsiders to say, that they should advertise their products.... But if a manufacturer doesn't feel that advertising a product will bring it ADDITIONAL profit over the nice profit they are already making.... They won't do it.

[rbpru]

While the manufactures do not object to the use of LTs for TT service. I have yet to see a manufacturer's advertisement suggesting they are a better choice than STs.

In fact I have never seen an add even recommending them for TT use.

But let me guess, it is part of the great tire conspiracy.

[4X4Dodger]

Let me pose a question to all of those here who believe any of the following:

A. ST tires are inferior to LT's for trailer service

B: ST Tires made in China are intrinsically bad

C: LT Tires are made "Heavier" ie better than ST Tires and thus are better for trailer service.

If I was able to bring ONE expert from the industry to this discussion who would you believe?

A Tire Design Engineer? A company spokesperson? An independent Tire industry writer?

Or?

Just name it and I will do my best to contact them and bring them in some way to this discussion. I have many contacts in business and industry and am sure I can get their attention.

So name a source you WILL BELIEVE. Because some of you certainly continue to deny the facts as stated in several posted sources from differing parts of the industry. So this is your chance.

[4X4Dodger]

gmw photos wrote:
Where I differ in opinion on much of this discussion is that on these forums, the proponents of ST will often state, "ST are for trailers, LT are for trucks".

At the very least, these guys are implying that using LT on a trailer is misapplication of the product. This point is where new folks to the trailering world often get confused by all the rhetoric. Many times, the new folks come on here and state that based on their reading of these threads, "the strong implication is they must use ST on the trailer, because LT is simply not made for trailers....it's made for trucks.

This is spreading misinformation to honestly new folks who are just trying to get solid reliable information to help in making a decision.

The truth is, the tire companies, the axles companies, and the trailer companies DO SAY that LT is an appropriate fitment for trailers.

If a person wants to buy a cheap tire, then by all means, vote with your dollars and buy a cheap tire. But let's be honest about it all and look at the total picture, without trying to confuse the issue with statements and implications that are misleading.

First: The tire manufacturer themselves have stated time and again exactly what you wrote: St's are for trailers and LT's are for trucks.

This is backed up by others in the industry such as the Tire media and Tire resellers both online and Brick and mortar stores. It is NOT just a statement you see here.

Now CAN one use an LT on a trailer? Surely But it may not be the BEST choice. Will it work? Yes in most cases. But this is NOT the issue at hand here really.

The issue here is; are LT tires INTRINSICALLY better than ST tires on trailers as some claim. My answer and the answer of the industry is NO they are not.

Your other claim that: The truth is, the tire companies, the axles companies, and the trailer companies DO SAY that LT is an appropriate fitment for trailers.

This is just not so. Tire companies have NOT said this. It is true that trailer manufacturers have put LT's on some trailers. And it is interesting how some see that as affirmation that LT's are better for trailers than ST's. The TRUTH may be they just were able to get the size they needed for a better price as many more millions of LT tires are made than ST.

The problem with the LT"s-are-always-better folks is that their skepticism only goes one way.

They deplore ST "China Bombs" on trailers and claim nothing in China is quality but they NEVER give a thought to where their LT tires were made.

They claim that LT tires are better but ignore the clear data that shows how many problems LT tires have had over the years. (While those problems exist they are so small in number as to be meaningless statistically as it is for ST tires)

Again I have posted in this thread several direct sources countering this LT is superior to the ST argument but still after 16 plus pages not a single LT supporter, China Tire hater, has posted a single direct source able to back up their claims.

[Huntindog]

rbpru wrote:


I suppose people are free to mix and match as they see fit. It is their money.

Actually people are NOT free to mix and match as they see fit. Putting ST tires on a automobile is ILLEGAL.
But putting LT tires on a TT is perfectly legal.

[SprinklerMan]

I just did a 2 hour trip from MD to Northern Va . Pulling my equip trailer . Running with traffic in the 2 right lanes . 75 mph . Any slower and I would have been a hazard . Left 2 lanes were much faster . This is why I run LT tires .

[93Cobra2771]

Yet pretty much every new car out there now has tpms built into them, as mandated by the government (I think it's mandated?).

Oh, and there are also warnings that inform you the car is running when you open your door.

PLENTY of folks out there that don't look at their tires till the tire warning pops up on the dash. Fact is, a lot of people simply don't do preventative maintenance, nor do they even inspect things and such...

[gmw_photos]

myredracer wrote:
Regardless whether or not TT owners should switch to LT tires or whether or not ST tires are substandard quality or outdated design, one big problem as I see it is that nobody tells a new TT owner to limit your speed to 65 mph or to keep the tires inflated to the correct psi at all times and how important it is.

It's not until someone searches on the internet or goes onto an RV forum and sees discussion on ST tires that they learn about how ST tires need to be treated and how they aren't the same as passenger car or light truck tires that people are accustomed to. It shouldn't be that way.

All the more reason to buy a tire that has a higher speed limit rating. As Forrest said, ....one less thing to worry about....

As for inflation, if folks don't have enough sense to keep their tires aired up, then they probably should not even have a drivers license. That is as basic as putting gas and oil in your car.

[myredracer]

Regardless whether or not TT owners should switch to LT tires or whether or not ST tires are substandard quality or outdated design, one big problem as I see it is that nobody tells a new TT owner to limit your speed to 65 mph or to keep the tires inflated to the correct psi at all times and how important it is.

It's not until someone searches on the internet or goes onto an RV forum and sees discussion on ST tires that they learn about how ST tires need to be treated and how they aren't the same as passenger car or light truck tires that people are accustomed to. It shouldn't be that way.

[gmw_photos]

Where I differ in opinion on much of this discussion is that on these forums, the proponents of ST will often state, "ST are for trailers, LT are for trucks".

At the very least, these guys are implying that using LT on a trailer is misapplication of the product. This point is where new folks to the trailering world often get confused by all the rhetoric. Many times, the new folks come on here and state that based on their reading of these threads, "the strong implication is they must use ST on the trailer, because LT is simply not made for trailers....it's made for trucks.

This is spreading misinformation to honestly new folks who are just trying to get solid reliable information to help in making a decision.

The truth is, the tire companies, the axles companies, and the trailer companies DO SAY that LT is an appropriate fitment for trailers.

If a person wants to buy a cheap tire, then by all means, vote with your dollars and buy a cheap tire. But let's be honest about it all and look at the total picture, without trying to confuse the issue with statements and implications that are misleading.

[rbpru]

If the question is can LTs be used for TT service, the answer is yes. In fact some TTs come equipped with them. LT are sometimes select for custom units as seen on the RV shows.

But the fact remains that the tire manufacturers would rather pass up sales than recommend LTs for general TT use. ST were developed for use on trailers of all types; LTs were developed for light truck, Ps for cars and some light trucks.

I suppose people are free to mix and match as they see fit. It is their money.