To Not Winterize in PA?

[Redterpos3]

I am wondering if anyone has kept their rig heated through the winter in central PA. Right now I'm keeping mine heated, as I still need to dump my black tank once more. I think keeping it heated through mid-december would be relatively easy (and not too costly). But Jan-Feb would be the pricey months, and dangerous if the propane gave out. My rig is in my driveway so I can keep an eye on it. But I did notice that when my propane did give out it got down to 30 degrees pretty quick:o If anyone has, what did it cost in propane??
My rig is a Nash, 4 season, enclosed tanks.

[Boskie]

I use the pink stuff in the toilet..

[Redterpos3]

The debate is very interesting! My dealer said to "blow it out". After reading on this site, it sounds to me to be good to run the pink stuff through the system, pushing out all the water, and then open all the drains, and let gravity remove the bulk of pink stuff. One item my dealer says to do, is put a crushed can of soda (no soda left) in the toilet trap to keep the seal open. Others here have said to put the pink stuff in the toilet to keep the seal wet? Which is best??? I'm confused on this one! :h

[soren]

Sorry GDEtrailer, but I just don't buy your claim on this one. I see zero evidence that RV antifreeze is diluted, incapable of doing exactly what it's designed to do, or greatly compromised by being additionally diluted while being introduced into the system.

By the time you properly gravity drain the system, prior to adding antifreeze, the vast majority of water has been evacuated. As for you claim that the stuff in your words "will freeze", or that you waste "a considerable amount" while protecting the system, my experience has been that neither concern is an issue. I know of one local dealership owner who uses multiple 55 gallon drums of the stuff on his inventory and only has issues when his help screws something up, like missing an outside shower, or bypass valves on a heater. After using it for the last fifteen years, typically more than once per year while head south for the holidays and back, I have never had a problem. I always use less than two gallons to do the job properly. Our RVs typically endure several nights a year with below zero temps. and do just fine. My personal risk tolerance makes me a bit leery of just blowing lines out, but you are literally the first person I ever heard of that claims that RV antifreeze is ineffective, or problematic.

[1buda]

Well I've just got done pushing antifreeze through the water system. Really don't want to chance any breakage. On the other hand how long does it take to flush out the antifreeze?

[Bumpyroad]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Bumpyroad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Lantley wrote:

1buda wrote:
I just blew air through out the entire water system, filled all the traps with antifreeze. We did get our first snow fall about 2". I plan on going out for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I should be good?

If you did not add antifreeze to your water lines you are taking a chance.
I also am planning to go out for Thanksgiving. I use a space heater when temps. dip below 32º. I am in a milder climate than Pittsburgh but I am also taking a chance.
The only foolproof way to avoid problems is to use antifreeze.

No, that is not true, blowing the water out and opening the low point drains works extremely well. In fact there are thousands (or even tens of thousands)of solar heating systems which USE THE SAME PRINCIPLE as blowing out the lines.

Those systems are call "drain back" systems. When the panel temps dip below the the tank temps the pump shuts off and the ENTIRE panel array simply drains back into the tank VIA GRAVITY. SOME water will stay behind but what does is very small and will allow space for the ice to expand. Simple but yet effective without the need for antifreeze (could you imagine how much it would cost to fill 500 or even 1000 gallon water storage tank full of antifreeze?).

I HAVE been doing it this way for 15 yrs and yet to have any broken lines AND I am about 1 hr NORTH of the OPs location so I often get clobbered by lower temps than Pittsburgh.

one "fact" you seem to have omitted, the solar heating system as well as systems in cabins that are designed to be drained out, are in fact constructed so that piping, elbows, dips, etc. are all self draining. to rely on a slapped together RV water system to be identical is foolish, IMHO.
you may not have a low spot in a run but you won't learn of it until it is too late. so save $4.00, and as Clint sez, "do you feel lucky"?
bumpy

:R

Your RV system IS designed well enough to use AIR only after all that IS why they INCLUDE "low point" drains.

Yes, the pipes may not be straight or angled to the drain points but the drain point are PLACED in such a away that more than 99% of the water will be blown out. Generally you only need 60%-70% of the water to be removed to make enough room for the water to expand. After all it is the high expansion ratio of water that does the damage. Give it some room and the water as it freezes doesn't damage anything.

In reality, if you allow the air to push the water out, then close the faucet, wait a minute then open again repeating that a couple of times removes nearly all the water in the system. Pausing in between allows water to "pool" in the low places and the sudden opening pushes it out. Finishing with opening the low point drains and it is a no brainer.

Keep in mind just because you put pink stuff in doesn't mean you won't have broken lines. You have to push out ALL the water, the problem is the pink stuff you buy in the gallon jugs is PREMIXED to 50/50. The pink stuff actually absorbs water while you are putting it in. This actually weakens the solution and it WILL freeze, you have NO WAY of measuring the strength so you have to waste a considerable amount in the process. So basically it is a GUESS at best.

If you recycle it for next year you are really taking chances since it WILL be diluted and running it again further dilutes it.

Something else to be concerned about, you also get the CHANCE of JUNK pink stuff. I have had that happen with windshield washer fluid that FROZE SOLID even at temps as low as 30 degrees.

Your choice...

that 1% of the water can accumulate in one low spot and destroy a pipe.
bumpy

[Gdetrailer]

Bumpyroad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Lantley wrote:

1buda wrote:
I just blew air through out the entire water system, filled all the traps with antifreeze. We did get our first snow fall about 2". I plan on going out for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I should be good?

If you did not add antifreeze to your water lines you are taking a chance.
I also am planning to go out for Thanksgiving. I use a space heater when temps. dip below 32º. I am in a milder climate than Pittsburgh but I am also taking a chance.
The only foolproof way to avoid problems is to use antifreeze.

No, that is not true, blowing the water out and opening the low point drains works extremely well. In fact there are thousands (or even tens of thousands)of solar heating systems which USE THE SAME PRINCIPLE as blowing out the lines.

Those systems are call "drain back" systems. When the panel temps dip below the the tank temps the pump shuts off and the ENTIRE panel array simply drains back into the tank VIA GRAVITY. SOME water will stay behind but what does is very small and will allow space for the ice to expand. Simple but yet effective without the need for antifreeze (could you imagine how much it would cost to fill 500 or even 1000 gallon water storage tank full of antifreeze?).

I HAVE been doing it this way for 15 yrs and yet to have any broken lines AND I am about 1 hr NORTH of the OPs location so I often get clobbered by lower temps than Pittsburgh.

one "fact" you seem to have omitted, the solar heating system as well as systems in cabins that are designed to be drained out, are in fact constructed so that piping, elbows, dips, etc. are all self draining. to rely on a slapped together RV water system to be identical is foolish, IMHO.
you may not have a low spot in a run but you won't learn of it until it is too late. so save $4.00, and as Clint sez, "do you feel lucky"?
bumpy

:R

Your RV system IS designed well enough to use AIR only after all that IS why they INCLUDE "low point" drains.

Yes, the pipes may not be straight or angled to the drain points but the drain point are PLACED in such a away that more than 99% of the water will be blown out. Generally you only need 60%-70% of the water to be removed to make enough room for the water to expand. After all it is the high expansion ratio of water that does the damage. Give it some room and the water as it freezes doesn't damage anything.

In reality, if you allow the air to push the water out, then close the faucet, wait a minute then open again repeating that a couple of times removes nearly all the water in the system. Pausing in between allows water to "pool" in the low places and the sudden opening pushes it out. Finishing with opening the low point drains and it is a no brainer.

Keep in mind just because you put pink stuff in doesn't mean you won't have broken lines. You have to push out ALL the water, the problem is the pink stuff you buy in the gallon jugs is PREMIXED to 50/50. The pink stuff actually absorbs water while you are putting it in. This actually weakens the solution and it WILL freeze, you have NO WAY of measuring the strength so you have to waste a considerable amount in the process. So basically it is a GUESS at best.

If you recycle it for next year you are really taking chances since it WILL be diluted and running it again further dilutes it.

Something else to be concerned about, you also get the CHANCE of JUNK pink stuff. I have had that happen with windshield washer fluid that FROZE SOLID even at temps as low as 30 degrees.

Your choice...

[Lantley]

Rv are not built to any critical standards. I do not trust the manufactures enough to ensure there are no low spots, trapped water or sagging in the lines. Blowing the lines may work for many but it is not a foolproof solution.

I am not willing to be the guinea pig and find out I had a low spot that held water and was not blown out.
Even if someone with the exact same model successfully used the blow out method, I would not assume blowing lines would work for me simply because RV's are not built to any real standards and there is very little quality control industry wide.
The only real advantage of blowing out the lines is that you can save the $10.00 cost of the anti freeze otherwise there is no real advantage in my book. Adding anti freeze is a simple process.
The water system should still be sanitized in the Spring either way. Unless of course you blow out all the germs when you blow out the lines?

[soren]

Bumpy, I would tend to agree about the potential hazards of just blowing lines out. Your take is quite logical. OTOH, I know more than one friend and neighbor in the mountains of northern PA. that have been RVing forever, blow the lines out at the end of the season, and only use the red stuff for the traps. Never been a problem for them. Personally, I go with the $6 in red juice every time, and let the pump fill everything up.

[dadmomh]

We winterize in West TN and wouldn't consider not doing so. For $2.98 a gallon x 2, it's just not worth chancing it. Normally, in the fall, we've had colder temps than this year and used a couple of ceramic heaters and opened the cabinet doors. This year, fall was quite warm and never dropped below 32 degrees until the past 2 nights. We winterized the new TT 2 weeks ago so we could catch up on all the house things we've neglected.

Big reason not to trust electric/ceramic heaters is that WHEN the power goes out, then you've either got a huge problem or you have to scurry around in nasty weather to get the job done. We're done and ready for whatever.

[mileshuff]

cpaharley2008 wrote:
I love winter camping, the cg's are empty and with a good fire and a heated water supply hose, I'm good.

Winter camping is great but I do not enjoy towing on snow covered roads or black ice. Both are common in N. AZ. in the winter. I take my 4x4 and hotel it for those trips!

[cpaharley2008]

I live in York, Pa and I winterize the unit and I leave a 400 watt electric heater on all winter in the bath area. I monitor via remote the temperature and it remains above freezing. But when I use my unit in January and February I'll have to use the E-Z winterize set up but still leave the electric heater on. It takes about one gallon each time.
I love winter camping, the cg's are empty and with a good fire and a heated water supply hose, I'm good.

[Bumpyroad]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Lantley wrote:

1buda wrote:
I just blew air through out the entire water system, filled all the traps with antifreeze. We did get our first snow fall about 2". I plan on going out for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I should be good?

If you did not add antifreeze to your water lines you are taking a chance.
I also am planning to go out for Thanksgiving. I use a space heater when temps. dip below 32º. I am in a milder climate than Pittsburgh but I am also taking a chance.
The only foolproof way to avoid problems is to use antifreeze.

No, that is not true, blowing the water out and opening the low point drains works extremely well. In fact there are thousands (or even tens of thousands)of solar heating systems which USE THE SAME PRINCIPLE as blowing out the lines.

Those systems are call "drain back" systems. When the panel temps dip below the the tank temps the pump shuts off and the ENTIRE panel array simply drains back into the tank VIA GRAVITY. SOME water will stay behind but what does is very small and will allow space for the ice to expand. Simple but yet effective without the need for antifreeze (could you imagine how much it would cost to fill 500 or even 1000 gallon water storage tank full of antifreeze?).

I HAVE been doing it this way for 15 yrs and yet to have any broken lines AND I am about 1 hr NORTH of the OPs location so I often get clobbered by lower temps than Pittsburgh.

one "fact" you seem to have omitted, the solar heating system as well as systems in cabins that are designed to be drained out, are in fact constructed so that piping, elbows, dips, etc. are all self draining. to rely on a slapped together RV water system to be identical is foolish, IMHO.
you may not have a low spot in a run but you won't learn of it until it is too late. so save $4.00, and as Clint sez, "do you feel lucky"?
bumpy

[Redterpos3]

Thanks All!! It is definitely COLD now. didn't get to 40 today, and my furnace was agoin'. I will get to a dump station as soon as I can, and then I won't worry about it. The only thing I really like though, is that when its cold and I walk up into the trailer, I feel like heading out again;) I've definitely been bitten by the bug:B

[Gdetrailer]

Lantley wrote:

1buda wrote:
I just blew air through out the entire water system, filled all the traps with antifreeze. We did get our first snow fall about 2". I plan on going out for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I should be good?

If you did not add antifreeze to your water lines you are taking a chance.
I also am planning to go out for Thanksgiving. I use a space heater when temps. dip below 32º. I am in a milder climate than Pittsburgh but I am also taking a chance.
The only foolproof way to avoid problems is to use antifreeze.

No, that is not true, blowing the water out and opening the low point drains works extremely well. In fact there are thousands (or even tens of thousands)of solar heating systems which USE THE SAME PRINCIPLE as blowing out the lines.

Those systems are call "drain back" systems. When the panel temps dip below the the tank temps the pump shuts off and the ENTIRE panel array simply drains back into the tank VIA GRAVITY. SOME water will stay behind but what does is very small and will allow space for the ice to expand. Simple but yet effective without the need for antifreeze (could you imagine how much it would cost to fill 500 or even 1000 gallon water storage tank full of antifreeze?).

I HAVE been doing it this way for 15 yrs and yet to have any broken lines AND I am about 1 hr NORTH of the OPs location so I often get clobbered by lower temps than Pittsburgh.

[1buda]

Lantley wrote:

1buda wrote:
I just blew air through out the entire water system, filled all the traps with antifreeze. We did get our first snow fall about 2". I plan on going out for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I should be good?

If you did not add antifreeze to your water lines you are taking a chance.
I also am planning to go out for Thanksgiving. I use a space heater when temps. dip below 32º. I am in a milder climate than Pittsburgh but I am also taking a chance.
The only foolproof way to avoid problems is to use antifreeze.

Thanks for the advise. Tomorrow I'll run antifreeze through the lines.