towing with suv???

[jsparkscougar]

Does anyone know of a lite weight travel trailer good for a couple that could be towed with an SUV?

[JiminDenver]

We have thought of trading up and I believe I would stay around 5500 lbs dry, keeping the loaded weight below 7000 lb. That should keep the tongue weight below 900 lbs.

5500 lbs dry is a lot of trailer if you look at what is available now. Especially if like us you can get by with a 3 season rig.

[colliehauler]

My opinion of the 80% rule. I have towed heavy with a Dodge 150 pickup. Did it tow the weight? Yes, but it took it toll on the truck. Before 100K miles I had replaced the ring and pinion, transmission and several front end componates. The ride of the truck was harsh and the drive was not pleasant. While the 80% rule might not be writtren in stone I think it is a good guideline. This is nothing more then my opinion from experience.

[DiskDoctr]

Ron Gratz wrote:
... can you please tell us how your "gravity, wind, levers, and all that good stuff" gives a better maximum trailer weight than the values determined by TV manufacturers.

First, yes, I am having a little fun with the discussion. I figured a little over the top humor could lighten the discussion. But I will do my best to respond to your comments, as the discussion does have merit. I suspect you are having some fun at my expense, too, and that's okay, too. 😉

I am not redefining or defining anything. There are ways to get things that need doing, done. Towing heavy is not as simple as 'turn the key' I expend a fair amount of extra effort to monitor many different items when in that situation.

80% is in most cases a no-brainer. Sure, it takes caution and proper equipment, but IMHO the average experienced driver of the TV can handle the situation with little more than WDH and sway control, combined with a healthy dose of care and caution.

Above that, one needs to make the effort to be properly prepared, both in their own skillset and experience, and equipment. It is the driver + equipment that makes the grade (pun intended). Use what you have and don't be afraid to stack the deck in your favor 😉

DiskDoctr wrote:
In any case, I tow regularly with my 4Runner V8 Limited (rated @ 7k tow) at about 6000-6500 lbs with a full cargo area in SUV. A bit of lugging on the steep mountains, but never had a handling or braking issue.**

By my math --
80% of 7000# is 5600# and
6000-6500# is 86-93% of 7000#.

Does that mean it's really okay to tow at 93% of the rated towing capacity? How about 100%?

Ron

If you are asking if it is okay to tow at full-rated TC,I believe it is certainly possible. After all, your TV isn't going to explode at TC + 1lb 😄

For legality purposes, it is my personal opinion that GCVW is the rule here. Mine is 12k. It is also my personal opinion that TCs are based upon equipment performance and wear and tear. Mfrs will honor warranties at those numbers and below. They are in essence 'guaranteeing' the capability up to that level. GCVW is more of the 'safety' part of the equation.

As I've stated, the above is my personal opinion and should not be imitated or relied upon by anyone for any reason. Always obey the law and all safety ratings and make your own choices. IOW, I am not responsible if anyone tries to follow or imitate the above and makes a mistake. <--Disclaimer, since we are talking about 'capabilities' and are not condoning any disregard of anything.

The poster between us put it well when he said mfrs do not use a common standard. IMHO, it is just like the horsepower ratings a few years back. Mfrs were free to use their own standard, and they did. Some have even been accused of cheating or fudging the numbers.

Personally, I think it is a shame when mfrs deliver a TV with say 12k published TC, then give a 1k cargo rating, knowing the two shall never meet 😞

I also offroad my 4Runner. Yep, it takes a toll, too. More repairs, the occasional fender dent, etc. It's a choice. I tow heavy and know it will take its toll. But when the trans is shot in the next 100k or so, I'll put in a bulletproof rebuilt one (send mine away) for about $6k. It is about 170k now and trans was serviced and fine about 20k ago.

My 4Runner was paid for many years ago and even if I had to put $10k in it over the next 5 yrs, I'm still far ahead of buying new. Less than $2k/yr? Heck, that was 4 monthly payments 😮 The other 8 months of the year are 'free' 😄

Hope this helps clear things up a bit 😉

[cmack]

I think the 80% rule (if that's what we're calling it) is born out the fact that there is no standard for defining towing capacities among the different manufactures. There may be a standard for a given manufacture but that only helps when looking at a specific manufacturer. As towing bragging rights become more common I suspect tow-offs (magazine comparison tests) will become more common also. Until a uniform standard is created all we can do it share our experiences and make decisions based upon them.

[Ron_Gratz]

DiskDoctr wrote:
'Little relevance...' Really? how does gravity, wind, levers, and all that good stuff work in 'your world'??? It still pulls Down, doesn't it? Or does 'Gravity 1.2' work in some other direction?---

Are you telling us that your 80% comfort factor is based on physics?

If so, can you tell us how physics was used to determine the 80% comfort factor, and what is the 80% applied to -- GCWR, GCWR minus loaded TV GVW, "Maximum Trailer Weight", "Maximum Trailer Weight" minus TV payload, etc, etc.
Then, can you please tell us how your "gravity, wind, levers, and all that good stuff" gives a better maximum trailer weight than the values determined by TV manufacturers.

I'm just trying to understand what your 80% value is based on and what you apply it to. For example:

DiskDoctr wrote:
In any case, I tow regularly with my 4Runner V8 Limited (rated @ 7k tow) at about 6000-6500 lbs with a full cargo area in SUV. A bit of lugging on the steep mountains, but never had a handling or braking issue.

By my math --
80% of 7000# is 5600# and
6000-6500# is 86-93% of 7000#.

Does that mean it's really okay to tow at 93% of the rated towing capacity? How about 100%?

Ron

[Ron_Gratz]

DiskDoctr wrote:
Your fallacious premise is asserting that Open Roads is the source of this guideline

You need to read a bit more carefully. I didn't say ORF is the source -- I said:

The earliest (12/04/00) reference I can find in Open Roads Forum to a towing-related "80% anything" is ---

As for what your learned decades ago -- many ways of doing things decades ago have little, if any, relevance to how things should be done today.

Ron

[DiskDoctr]

As with many towing myths, this application of an "80% rule" was based on a fallacious premise.
Unfortunately, if an opinion gets repeated enough times, some people begin to believe it is a fact.

Your fallacious premise is asserting that Open Roads is the source of this guideline :R

I've been towing for quite a while and I was taught and understood this rule decades before your quoted 'invented by' date.

Oh yeah, wasn't that about the time Al Gore invented the Internet? Lol.

Next thing you'll say is there is no such thing as Global Warming...oh, wait... :S you got me ther . 😉

[RinconVTR]

jsparkscougar wrote:
Does anyone know of a lite weight travel trailer good for a couple that could be towed with an SUV?

Look at Jayco light weight options and the Gulfstream Visa line.

[Ron_Gratz]

APT wrote:
The "80%" rule, guideline, whatever people call it often covered RVing vs. other types of trailers that are far easier to tow. It also generally covered the payload limitation of half ton vehicles and smaller for family RVing. As Ron suggested, there is no such thing as an 80% anything. Learn what each limit is for any given TV with respect to RVing and you can operate up to and some people believe over certain ratings.

The earliest
(12/04/00) reference I can find in Open Roads Forum to a towing-related "80% anything" is in this post:
"---

Find out how much your vechicle can pull then do not exceed 80% of that tow limit.. The 80 / 20 rule.

---"

It's interesting to note that this early 80% rule appears to be based on the 80-20 rule which has nothing to do with towing-related safety factors.
As with many towing myths, this application of an "80% rule" was based on a fallacious premise.
Unfortunately, if an opinion gets repeated enough times, some people begin to believe it is a fact.

In order for any xx% rule to have any meaning, one should specify: xx% of WHAT, and why XX%?
We previously saw a reference to "80% of rated towing capacity", with no definition of "rated towing capacity".
Ford specifies values "Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight" and then says the weight of additional options, passengers, cargo and hitch must be deducted from this weight. So, which number does the 80% apply to.
GM/Chevrolet specifies values for "Maximum Trailer Weight" and also lists weights which must be deducted. Again -- 80% of what?
Toyota specifies values for "maximum gross trailer weight", but does not say anything about deducting any weight carried in/on the TV.
Seems to me that, if the objective is to impose an arbitrary "comfort factor" on how hard the TV is allowed to work, the factor should be applied to the TV's GCWR rather than to some "rated towing capacity" which has no universal definition and often is mis-interpreted.

And, other than some mistaken application of the 80-20 rule, why should the "comfort factor" be 80%? If 80% is good, would not 70% be even better?
OTOH, if the TV manufacturer is comfortable with 100% and is willing to provide warranty coverage for 100% usage, why should we be telling people they must limit towing load to 80% of some undefined value?

All too often it is implied that, if one keeps the trailer weight below 80% of the "rated towing capacity", the other weight-related considerations will take care of themselves. This is true in some cases -- but not in others.
Consider a TV with published towing capacity of 9500# and published payload of 1500#. Blindly applying an 80% rule could give "comfort" to a person towing a 7600# TT which might have a TW of 1000#. However, that "comfortable" towing combination might actually be going down the highway with TT GVW in excess of GVWR.

Application of an arbitrary "comfort factor" to an ill-defined capacity value does not ensure a safe and nicely-handling TV/TT combination.
As APT stated, we should be trying to help prospective purchasers understand the reasoning behind all manufacturer ratings -- and the need to comply with all of them.

Ron

[DiskDoctr]

Ahh, I see JiminDenver types faster than I do and provided some good info, too.

[DiskDoctr]

Good comment, APT. I wasn't avoiding giving info to the OP, but didn't want to turn this thread into another '80%' debate 😉

Anton, generally speaking, most people can add a WDH + sway control and if they stay at or below 80% of their TV's rated towing capacity, they never have to consider calculated loads, axle weights, advanced hitches, upgraded tires, etc...yet have a perfectly acceptable towing experience.

It is usually once you get closer to or even exceed the tow capacity that all these things and drivers' skills play a significantly larger role.

To be perfectly clear, I do NOT recommend you exceed any ratings or capacities on your vehicle, trailer, or even at the dinner buffet. If you want some private tips of how to better prepare your TV/setup to better handle large loads, drop me a PM and I'd be more than happy to share the things I've done over the years.

This is a public board, so gotta use disclaimers or someone will read it, get the wrong idea, and next thing you know, they will be towing a truck on a cargo trailer while it is attached to a 5th wheel RV, all behind a rented UHaul truck! 😄 (nod to the other thread)

Here is one thing that concerns me. Some folks are suggesting that to tow heavy, their TV should be nearly empty and kept as light as possible. Bullocks! A light TV is just begging to be thrown around by the wind, heavy trailer, or a wild sneeze.

I load the rear axle with cargo and use the WDH to xfer trailer tongue weight to the front axle. The last things I want are light weight axles ON THE WHEELS I CONTROL (wheels on the TV) when I need to maneuver or deal with wind, etc. Some squat of TV is good for handling.

If you are setup properly, the TV should NEVER feel light it wants to twist or have the back end pushed one way or the other. Even in high winds, the worst it should feel like is being pushed as one with the trailer...sort of like driving a car fast around a sharp turn- don't oversteer or accelerate and you remain in control.

A proportional brake controller with boost settings. I use a Prodigy and have been quite pleased. It allows you to instantly set it to be more aggressive for steep hills, heavy traffic, etc while still maintaining a solid base adjustment. It is not affected by the mounting level, pitch of your TV (think steep grades), or other factors.

Again, I apologize if you were seeking this kind of info and I failed to assist. Hope this helps!

[JiminDenver]

You can improve towing with a Expy by changing out the P tires for LT's. You can change out the gears in the rear end if you don't have the towing package already. You can even slap a turbo on the 5.4 and give it 600 hp. You will have a truck you can take to the drag strip and probably win with BUT you will still have a tongue weight limit of 900 pounds.

Can you run at or exceed your limits and get away with it, maybe. You may find that for perfect situations that there are no issue but in a emergency situation you are SOL. You may find that there are bearings that can handle the load but over loaded for hours on end may cause them to over heat and be smoked. It isn't always the biggest parts failing that gets ya.

Go beyond the tongue weight and you have to look at payload. Our 07 has 1745 pounds of payload to play with. Take 1100 pounds of tongue weight out of that and you have 600 pounds or less depending on how much your hitch weighs. In our case the dogs, Honey and I weigh a total of 400 pounds plus a full tank of gas and whatever else is in the truck. Now you are talking not just exceeding the tongue weigh but also bumping up against the total payload. (BTW different Expys have different payloads. the 03 has 1565 lbs, some have over 1800 lb)

There is also a limit as far as how much the total rig can weigh. your trailer will likely be running at 8000 pounds and a Expy is 5600 pounds dry PLUS passengers, gas, etc. That's 14000 pounds, is that limit being pushed too?

To me the numbers are there to tell you what the truck can safely do. It is your family in there, do what you think is best for them.

[APT]

The "80%" rule, guideline, whatever people call it often covered RVing vs. other types of trailers that are far easier to tow. It also generally covered the payload limitation of half ton vehicles and smaller for family RVing. As Ron suggested, there is no such thing as an 80% anything. Learn what each limit is for any given TV with respect to RVing and you can operate up to and some people believe over certain ratings.

Every modern naturally aspirated engine will need 4000rpm+ to maintain 60mph up hills towing high walled RVs. It take a lot of power to maintain 65mph on flat ground and those engines with little reserve torque at 2500rpm will need to downshift a gear or two. But that will be true of 4000 pounds loaded or 8000 pounds.

The problem most people have and the most mentioned improvement when people upgrade to TVs with more capability is the towing stability. The TV handles wind better. Natural wind, wind off opposing semi trucks, wind from slant nose minivans can be a bear when they pass you.

[cmack]

AntonB, I think the idea behind the 80% reserve if for steep hills (I may be wrong). With my setup I'm basically at 80% and haven't encountered an incline I had to slow down for. It will downshift and run at 4000 RPMs on the bigger climbs though, but it still maintains 60 MPH (my usual towing speed). I doubt I would be able to maintain that speed if I was at max tow though. If you find it struggling you may be able to change the rear end gearing which is less $ than buying a new tow vehicle.