Yet another "Can I tow it" request.

[Cotay]

So my wife and I purchased our Aerolite 174es Hybrid last April and immediately realized when we got it home that our minivan was insufficient for towing. We managed to trade up to a 2007 Expedition EL 4X4 that had 13,000 miles on it. That has worked very well for towing the Hybrid.

Unfortunately, over this past summer we realized that the Hybrid was just too small and didn't have enough storage for us. We have four children (ages 6, 5, 3, and 1) and tend to pack most of our gear in the HTT and in a skybox in order to distribute it across both axles of the TV.

We have decided to upgrade the HTT to a fully enclosed TT and are interested in the Outback Terrain 250TRS. The advertised specs are a shipping weight of 5483 and a tongue weight of 585. My gut feeling is that this is about the maximum I'd want to tow with the TV. Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

Just to note, we are only planning on using the Expedition EL for towing for a few more years until I can get myself a nice pickup, so growing kids shouldn't be too much of a concern over the life of owning the new TT. Right now we pack very light.

Any comments would be appreciated.

EDIT: I can confirm we have the HD tow package as well.

[robeyster]

Glad everything worked out good for you. Let me know how the sumo springs work out for you. A tuner will help with the acceleration. I have an edge programmer on my f150 and was thinking of getting one for the expedition if I decided to tow with it. It will definitely help with the transmissions shifts. I was wondering what mirrors you are using while towing? I used to have a pair of CIPA for my F150 that slipped on the existing mirrors and worked great with no vibration, but they don't make the same ones for expedition.

[Cotay]

As a follow up to this thread, we picked up the Outback Terrain 250TRS this past weekend in Fresno, CA. We live a few hours away right on the other side of the Gabilan mountain range. For those of you not familiar with Pacheo Pass, it has a well-deserved reputation for being dangerous. It has been much improved over the past few decades (it has gone from being a two-lane undivided highway to a four-lane divided highway), but as you pass San Luis Reservoir, the winds can be frightening. The combination of extremely high winds, heavy traffic (commercial and auto), grade, and winding road can make for some intense moments. When we purchased our original HTT, the only thing that had us worried was making it over “the Hill”. For the most part the HTT/Expedition combination was fine, but with the single axle we definitely appreciated the anti-sway bar. The one time we forgot to engage it going over the top, we regretted it.

So this weekend as we approached “the Hill” after dark, I was apprehensive for multiple reasons. Of course I worried about the wind, diminished visibility, the new Fastway WDH (we previously used a Curt WDH with friction anti-sway), and the weight of the 250TRS. With the Expedition loaded with all six of us, we managed to pull over the hill without having to downshift at all. I am very happy with the performance of the TV + TT combination. The acceleration is of course slower, but I am content. We are having some sumospring helpers put on tomorrow to help offset a bit of sag, but at no time did I ever feel unsafe. Overall, I have no regrets about the Outback Terrain.

Thanks for the advice that everyone provided. We are looking forward to getting out and camping!

[Cotay]

Thanks to everyone for their advice and comments. We purchased the new Outback Terrain 250TRS yesterday and will be picking it up next Saturday. I am confident that we are fine with the weight until the children get a few years older. Right now we don't pack heavy items such a bicycles, etc. However, when the kids are older I'd prefer to have an F-250 Crew Cab and the plan is to purchase one in about 3 years to tow the TT. The Expedition will then be relegated to towing our Yamaha AR230. Next up...scheduling camping and boating trips for the summer! 🙂

[Cotay]

APT wrote:

Cotay wrote:
Yes, I understand. I was concerned specifically about sag but appreciate the advice.

In my experience, a properly adjusted WDH provides a visually acceptable amount of rear end drop. My prior F-150 was 0-500 pounds over GVWR for two seasons and looked great when the WDH was used and properly adjusted. Rear suspension "aids" IMHO make WDH adjustment more complicated as well as mask overloaded situations.

I see one online dealer that has its weight listed as 5700lbs dry with a 555 pound tongue weight. Is that about accurate?

[APT]

Coil suspension can support just as much weight as leaf spring. It will cost more money to manufacture. The 2009+ Ram 1500 for example just uses low spring rates. The 2014 Ram 2500 supports very competitive weights to Ford/GM with leaf springs.

[robeyster]

APT wrote:

Cotay wrote:
Yes, I understand. I was concerned specifically about sag but appreciate the advice.

In my experience, a properly adjusted WDH provides a visually acceptable amount of rear end drop. My prior F-150 was 0-500 pounds over GVWR for two seasons and looked great when the WDH was used and properly adjusted. Rear suspension "aids" IMHO make WDH adjustment more complicated as well as mask overloaded situations.

I understand a properly adjusted weight distribution will provide for rear end sag, but the reason I would use them for is to stiffen the rear up. A coil suspension in my opinion does not give the same support as a leaf spring suspension.

[PUCampin]

You will be fine. Keep your loaded trailer weight under 7000lbs (under 6500 would be better) and everything will work out. With the 131" wheelbase EL, pretty much any trailer that will work in the weight catagory will not be too long. Anything too long for the EL will probably be too heavy too.

We also have a 07 EL 4x4, here are our numbers. For our exact option package (EL 4x4 XLT with rear air and moonroof) our available payload is 1675lbs. The Expedition is the 1/2 ton payload king. Every other 1/2 ton SUV I have seen is lower or A LOT lower payload, anywhere from 1100-1400lbs.


We have 3 kids and often take DWs aunt. Adding up our weights, carseats, strollers and stuff, we are about 800lbs, leaving 875lbs for hitch weight which is essentially the limit for the receiver anyway.

So 875/.13 = about 6700 lbs., 875/.14 = 6250 if you are more conservative. Subtract 1000-1200bs for water, propane extra battery, food and "stuff" puts us looking for a dry weight around 5000-5500.

Our actual trailer is 3900 brochure dry, 4050 delivered, and around 5100 loaded full of water. And yes we have on many occasions camped with 6 of us in a 22ft end to end non slide trailer :). We could go bigger if we wanted but for now like how our smaller TT fits into smaller campgrounds here in California.

Don't be fooled by the "9100lb max tow" rating. A boat or flat deck cargo trailer IS NOT the same animal as a TT. Boats and cargo trailers have lower air resistance and weight centered over the trailer axles. Therefor they can get by with a 10% tongue weight. So if the max hitch tongue weight is 910lbs, 910/0.10 = 9100lbs!! See how that works? A TT has much higher air resistance and weigh all over the place, often around the edges, and therefor needs a heavier tongue to remain stable. That is why TTs are 13-15% Since you can't exceed the hitch rating, the maximum weight TT you can tow will ALWAYS be less than the theoretical "max tow" number, usually A LOT less, because the MFR is using a boat or cargo trailer to derive their max tow number. BUT THE DEALER NEVER TELLS YOU THIS!!

The reliable workhorse 5.4 mated with the fantastic 6spd and 3.73 axle ratio will get it moving and get the job done. Don't be afraid to put your foot in it and let the 5.4 spin, most small block OHC V8s make their power in the 4k range.

[APT]

Cotay wrote:
Yes, I understand. I was concerned specifically about sag but appreciate the advice.

In my experience, a properly adjusted WDH provides a visually acceptable amount of rear end drop. My prior F-150 was 0-500 pounds over GVWR for two seasons and looked great when the WDH was used and properly adjusted. Rear suspension "aids" IMHO make WDH adjustment more complicated as well as mask overloaded situations.

[michigansandzil]

Cotay wrote:

michigansandzilla wrote:
It should be fine. We have nearly the same weight with our Shadow Cruiser and we tow it with our Expedition. 2 adults, 3 kids ages 11, 9, &5 and 2, 100+ lbs dogs. No problem.

Happy camping.

Do you mind telling me which model of Shadow Cruiser you have? I was interested in the S-280QBS but thought it might be too long. The weights seem good though.

EDIT: I just saw your profile. How do you like the 280QBS?

We like our camper very much. For the price of the TT and our weight restrictions, I honestly have not found anything else that I like more.
We've looked just for fun at the RV shows the past few years and still prefer our 280 QBS over other makes and models. Shadow Cruiser has a newer model that has the second door going into the bathroom, but this did add quite a bit more weight.
We've been happy with the camper and the customer service to the point that we'd happily purchase another one for our next camper.

[Cotay]

Ron Gratz wrote:

Cotay wrote:
Thanks! I'll look into the sumosprings...I don't have the air suspension and they look like they'd be a big help.

These suspension aids do not increase the TV's carrying capacity -- but they will reduce the amount of rear-end sag.

Ron

Yes, I understand. I was concerned specifically about sag but appreciate the advice.

[Ron_Gratz]

Cotay wrote:
Thanks! I'll look into the sumosprings...I don't have the air suspension and they look like they'd be a big help.

These suspension aids do not increase the TV's carrying capacity -- but they will reduce the amount of rear-end sag.

Ron

[Ron_Gratz]

Cotay wrote:
We have decided to upgrade the HTT to a fully enclosed TT and are interested in the Outback Terrain 250TRS. The advertised specs are a shipping weight of 5483 and a tongue weight of 585. My gut feeling is that this is about the maximum I'd want to tow with the TV. Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

According to the online 2007 Expedition Owners Manual, the Expedition has a Maximum Tongue Weight rating of 910#.
The actual value for your TV can be found on the receiver's label.

Assuming max TW of 910# and typical TW% of 13% means your loaded TT weight could be 7000# without exceeding the receiver's rating.
A TW of 910# and a properly sized and adjusted WDH would result in a vertical load of about 910*0.8 = 730# applied to the TV.

Assuming the allowable weight of TV occupants and cargo is 1600# (actual value is found on label located on driver's door edge or pillar), you would have about 1600-730 = 870# available for occupants and cargo, including the weight of a WDH and any other after-market items installed on the TV.

Depending on how the TV is loaded you also might be near or over the rear GAWR.
As others have mentioned, the best way to predict how much TT you can tow is to load the TV as it would be loaded for camping, including about 100# for the WDH, and measure the axle loads.
Then we would have a better basis for offering advice.

Ron

[APT]

Check driver's sticker payload for max weight of occupants and cargo. That and the 900-ish pound receiver rating will be your limit for larger families and half ton TVs.

Or, spend $14 at a CAT scale with current setup (3 passes) to learn where you currently stand with respect to all your TV ratings. You'll be better educated on how much more weight you can handle.

[JiminDenver]

You would be at the high end of what we would tow with our Expys. 5500 pounds dry and stay under 7000 loaded will stay below the 900 lb tongue weight limit.

Our 07 has a payload of 1745 lb but it isn't a EL. It does a great job even though we pull in the mountains each trip.