Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:

Can one assume that some of those shock waves enter the fuel pump piston chamber
while the one way valve opens into the common rail feed tube?

Diameter of the injector tubes is very small relative to the plenum / common rail, which in turn is connected by a slightly larger diameter tube -- have to wait for rick to post some pics to estimate diameter.

I can't speak to the shock wave --- but do note that one of the Bosch? patents is for a way to isolate the pump from engine heat (and possibly with that, vibration) as well.

• What does that do to the piston?
• The cam and follower?
• The PSI inside the piston chamber?

Anyone know the characteristics of those piezo injectors? Am assuming that there
is little to no hysteresis with their open/close cycle...or am I all wet there?

I have no info on that one.

Good that there is no return on this system, as think any return would just add
another layer of potential wrench in the frey


There is a pressure relief / sensor on the pump itself that lets fuel return to the fuel tank --- also note the Ford patent re fuel cooling in common rails cited above.

I cannot tell if the RHS common rail have a return / or just a sensor at the end.. it looks like a connector to a electrical device.


If/since no return, then it MUST have some sort of accumulator...otherwise that
piston pump would kill itself in short order pumping into a fixed volume chamber
with 'some' relief via injectors...but...it must not be, as then the PSI would
fluctuate too much.

The more I think about it, it has to have an accumulator or some compliant
reservoir (accumulator) somewhere...maybe they are using some rubber/synthetic
hose as the accumulator?

AFAIK, the hoses are metal, but we don't know what s inside the common rail and injectors.

Could there be some shock absorber in there?


Anyone know the injector working PSI range? vs the common rail PSI range? This would provide limited and a guesstimation look at their
hysteresis. On that, how does the injector close?

Can one assume that the common rail/accumulator HAS TO HAVE HEAD ROOM OVER THE INJECTORS?

To keep this from going too oblique...this train of thought has to do with the
shock back-feeding to that one way valve and then the pump piston

It would be an interesting simulation to see at what frequencies / rpm do standing waves get set up inside the system and can feed back to the pump piston.


Think that it is cavitation inside he pump piston chamber that creates bubbles
(either or both micro gaseous bubble, H2O micro droplet) that then tears apart
the softened DLC (via organic amines). That then has the DLC pit/flake/etc to
have the piston go metal on metal (those bubbles will have voids which has no
lube).

If that is the process, it would take time to work its way through --- and it is not really just a lubricity issue in fuel, but cavitation etc. That would explain it getting through durability testing on reference fuel (with less water / contaminants).


The injector/plenum/common-rail shock waves working on the one way valve only
exacerbate this or is an accelerating catalyst for this mess.

A very interesting, complex hypothesis.

Summing up your theory:

Shock waves / standing waves are set up at certain rpms / frequencies that can be transmitted from injector to common rail(s) then to pump via fuel line, to the valve and then onto the piston / pump chamber, weakened DLC coating (with amine reactivity) result in ablation of coating at far higher rate (as pressure pulse transmitted would exceed pump spec pressure).

Note your theory would not create an issue at the normally regarded point of maximum stress, which is the cam lobe / piston contact area.

Intriguing.

[BenK]

After zooming in on that image, think that the main feed from the pump to the
right side of the image is that bigger tube, along with a smaller tube that I
can't figure out...maybe that is a return line to the pump, as it seems to have
a compliant tubing from a dodad off the right side of that common rail...is that
the accumulator?

Then am pretty sure the left side is fed from the right side at the bottom of the
common rail...but...there are three much smaller lines in that grouping. Wonder
what the other two are?

Maybe part of the accumulator system?

[BenK]

From that image, am guessing that the right side is the first to see fuel from
the pump.

Then goes over to the left side.

Or if both sides are evenly balanced with a direct feed from the
pump, better, but still not good without an accumulator

IMHO, using the common rail for both plenum and accumulator is asking for trouble
'if' an accumulator is warranted.

Even used as a plenum, poor design, the left side sees the run from the right side
to have some delay and/or drop in PSI.

Thanks for posting the info on injector shock. Confirmed some thoughts that
there are way too many pulsations inside the hydraulic system playing by themselves
and marrying with others.

Can one assume that some of those shock waves enter the fuel pump piston chamber
while the one way valve opens into the common rail feed tube?

• What does that do to the piston?
• The cam and follower?
• The PSI inside the piston chamber?

Anyone know the characteristics of those piezo injectors? Am assuming that there
is little to no hysteresis with their open/close cycle...or am I all wet there?

Good that there is no return on this system, as think any return would just add
another layer of potential wrench in the frey

If/since no return, then it MUST have some sort of accumulator...otherwise that
piston pump would kill itself in short order pumping into a fixed volume chamber
with 'some' relief via injectors...but...it must not be, as then the PSI would
fluctuate too much.

The more I think about it, it has to have an accumulator or some compliant
reservoir (accumulator) somewhere...maybe they are using some rubber/synthetic
hose as the accumulator?

Anyone know the injector working PSI range? vs the common rail PSI range? This would provide limited and a guesstimation look at their
hysteresis. On that, how does the injector close?

Can one assume that the common rail/accumulator HAS TO HAVE HEAD ROOM OVER THE INJECTORS?

To keep this from going too oblique...this train of thought has to do with the
shock back-feeding to that one way valve and then the pump piston

Think that it is cavitation inside he pump piston chamber that creates bubbles
(either or both micro gaseous bubble, H2O micro droplet) that then tears apart
the softened DLC (via organic amines). That then has the DLC pit/flake/etc to
have the piston go metal on metal (those bubbles will have voids which has no
lube).

The injector/plenum/common-rail shock waves working on the one way valve only
exacerbate this or is an accelerating catalyst for this mess.

[NewsW]

Here is a photo of the common rail as implemented by Ford:

http://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c669e20120a587edf6970c-800wi


I can't really tell from this picture... but does it look like there is one common rail that does not have a "return" line, and the other one have a pressure sensor at the end of it and also a bleed off / return?

http://www.trucktestdigest.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/e-LW_2011_SuperDuty_Intro-107-150x150.jpg


Rick ---- can you peek in your engine compartment and post some photos of the plumbing from the pump to the common rail?

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:
Hey, is there a accumulator in this new common rail setups?

If no, then of course...

If yes, then anyone know it's spec's ?

Plus H2O in there along with potential micro bubbles...to have that
H2O instantly vaporize from high heat and the biggie....VACUUM !!!!

If I am not mistaken, the CP4 feeds straight to the "common rail" which doubles as the accumulator / reservoir for all the injectors in the bank.

AFAIK, there is no provision for dampening of hydroshock beyond the normal spring / elasticity in the metal accumulator rail and associated piping.


The H20 would be in supercritical state at least some of the time.

Plus other hydrocarbons, gases.. all in supercritical state.


We know zilcho about the corrosion / reactivity of supercritical fluids and the surfaces they contact.

[BenK]

One last thought before going away for a bit (retired but still have 'work' to do)

With a gear pump, there is no need for one way valves...

[BenK]

Hey, is there a accumulator in this new common rail setups?

If no, then of course...

If yes, then anyone know it's spec's ?

Plus H2O in there along with potential micro bubbles...to have that
H2O instantly vaporize from high heat and the biggie....VACUUM !!!!

[BenK]

NewsW wrote:
snip...


I know that Delphi is beating their chest about how they got a lot of noise (read hydraulic shock, etc.) out of the new gen injectors.


Something tells me you are onto something interesting.

Always wondered about the secondary, tertiary, etc resonances of the
main source factored by other's main, secondary, tertiary, etc waves
in such a small cavity

Toss in some heat and organic amines into this brew and you have some
interesting, if not newly found laws of physics...

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:

Things like that one way valve becoming a hammer with it's own spring
and the vacuum created by the piston. How does that thing seal? O-Ring
or metal on metal or some other compliant material? Hammered to pit or
flake or ????

Hammer to further create an even higher vacuum to cavitate somewhere
in the compression chamber ?

Or this new one just popped up....micro bubble in the fluid that then
expands due to this vacuum/cavitation to then create a 'dry' (non-lubed)
spot for a micro second...

I know that Delphi is beating their chest about how they got a lot of noise (read hydraulic shock, etc.) out of the new gen injectors.


Something tells me you are onto something interesting.

[NewsW]

BenK wrote:


When at the labs and hiring summer interns in prep to weed them out for
hire full time after they graduate...we (my scientists and I) coined
'red light, green light DESIGNERS'....these kids are extremely bright
and well schooled...but...they are so convinced that the CAM simulations
are absolute

Meaning that they (most) will just take it and move onto their next task

See this when visiting their U's and corporations using our stuff.
Worse in the corporations visited, as some engineering management has
a loosey goosey tolerance for the numbers of vectors accepted to pass the review gate

Scary...

You must know this case file:


http://home.versatel.nl/the_sims/rig/sleipnera.htm

This failure mechanism manifested because of several inconsistencies in the initial conditions defined in the design software. The sinking was partially caused by the inappropriate use of finite element (FE) -code NASTRAN with regards to the global analysis of the finalized design: the finite element mesh used to analyze the tri-cells was too coarse to predict the shear stress accurately. The flawed analysis and post-processing of the tri-cell design led to shear forces being underestimated by some 45%.

Another flaw with the use of the software was the human error involved: the design software involved considerable complexity, which led to a a very high perception of precision by those who used it. One of the features of this software was the way it ran calculations: it would only flag certain sections that were deemed critical by the software presets, and indicate those as sections that the engineers on the design team needed to check. The probable failure point of the SLA-1 GBS was not flagged.

http://failures.wikispaces.com/Sleipner+A+-+North+Sea+Oil+Platform+Collapse



Basically, if someone who is experienced took a slide ruler (not a calculator) and hand checked the calculations crudely, the error would have been obvious.

[BenK]

NewsW wrote:
Is there a fluid dynamics issue with the pumps?

Cavitation?

Resonant frequency?

Fluid mechanics?

Supercritical fluids?

How components / housings react to high temperature and pressure?

Validation of simulation models (that always spell "opps")

Circumstantial evidence in the hiring....

When at the labs and hiring summer interns in prep to weed them out for
hire full time after they graduate...we (my scientists and I) coined
'red light, green light DESIGNERS'....these kids are extremely bright
and well schooled...but...they are so convinced that the CAM simulations
are absolute

Meaning that they (most) will just take it and move onto their next task

Kept an eye on the ones who questioned the simulation results and asked
Passed on those green/red light kids.

We are also losing the old guard who have the feeling for how it should
be. Very, very rare to find kids these days who have that touch/feeling...

See this when visiting their U's and corporations using our stuff.
Worse in the corporations visited, as some engineering management has
a loosey goosey tolerance for the numbers of vectors accepted to pass the review gate

Scary...


{edit}.... Just noticed that if those recruiter spec's are true and most
likely you are correct in that they are hiring for this problem...that
those attributes will normally be interviewed as individual and disassociated
to the whole system (multiplexed)

When I hired for research, always looked for that rarity of wide
vision (both literal and figurative) with a healthy dose of free
associative (far out there oblique and/or ancillary) skills

Things like that one way valve becoming a hammer with it's own spring
and the vacuum created by the piston. How does that thing seal? O-Ring
or metal on metal or some other compliant material? Hammered to pit or
flake or ????

Hammer to further create an even higher vacuum to cavitate somewhere
in the compression chamber ?

Or this new one just popped up....micro bubble in the fluid that then
expands due to this vacuum/cavitation to then create a 'dry' (non-lubed)
spot for a micro second...

Oh...more on that thought...then factor in very high temps of both the
fluid and the solid (DLC coated metal) that will exacerbate that micro
bubble's ability to vaporize

We had that problem on silicon (chips) cooled via flooded fluid at
cryo temps. Both a micro bubble and/or vaporization of the fluid to
thermally shock the silicon. Why I invented diamond foam used with
a high PSI hosed in (droplets) cryo fluid.

[NewsW]

Anyone here have access to Delphion Unlimited?

[NewsW]

Is there a fluid dynamics issue with the pumps?

Cavitation?

Resonant frequency?

Fluid mechanics?

Supercritical fluids?

How components / housings react to high temperature and pressure?

Validation of simulation models (that always spell "opps")


Circumstantial evidence in the hiring....

[NewsW]

Sometimes, it can be divined what sort of problem they are trying to solve by what they are hiring.

Researching and developing technologies

What’s in store for you:

In research and development, you work at the very heart of our success, creating the foundations for our innovative products, developing new technologies, and securing the leading position of our company for the long term. Depending on your field and specialism, you work in one of our central research units or in the development department of a division. A wide variety of fields is open to you, including new production technologies, alternative drive technologies, photovoltaic systems or battery materials as well as fluid mechanics and tribology, power electronics, high-frequency technology or 3-D design – and these are just a handful of technical and natural sciences fields where we are delivering cutting-edge work. What you can definitely expect is a state-of-the-art working environment. Your work involves liaising closely with related departments as well as with external research facilities and our customers’ development departments.

What we expect from you:

Your curiosity and specialist know-how are your greatest strengths. You hold a college or university degree in a technical or natural sciences discipline and display sound methodological skills. Experience gained working for a research institute or a university is an asset, as is relevant professional experience. In addition, you value interdisciplinary work and can communicate well in international teams.


Testing products virtually

What’s in store for you:

In simulation, you predict how products, materials, and systems behave under specific conditions. This may include examining how a component reacts to high temperatures or a housing to high pressure, the dynamics of multibody systems, the interactions between control units and sensors or actuators, the field distribution within electromagnetic components or the operation of a process. You simulate these conditions using computer-based programs, and apply the results in developing algorithms and statistical models for the design of systems, processes, and components. You independently gather simulation-relevant data, e.g. on physical material properties or customer-specific environmental conditions. Subsequently, you help validate the simulation models with measurements and tests. Employing simultaneous engineering methodology, you work at the interface between development, design, applications, testing, and manufacturing.

What we expect from you:

If you enjoy working with figures, have an analytical mind, and an interest in theoretical issues in the sciences, then simulation and analysis is right for you. In addition to your technical degree in a subject such as mechanical or electrical engineering, you need solid expertise in computer science and programming. Specialist knowledge of fluid dynamics or thermodynamics, mechanics, and electrodynamics is also essential. You should be familiar with statistical methods and the use of simulation tools such as MATLAB, Abaqus, ANSYS, Saber, SPICE or FloTHERM.

http://www.bosch-career.de/en/de/einsteigen_bosch/funktionsbereiche/funktionsbereiche_1.html



Note the highlighted items.

That is an interesting telltale when paired with conference presentations, a tad of technology roadmapping, and a few other tricks of the trade.

[milsuperdoc]

Huntindog wrote:

milsuperdoc wrote:

milsuperdoc wrote:

NewsW wrote:

Huntindog wrote:


I thought about all the varibles that insurers usually use when setting rates, but most all of them shouldn't really affect the MBI premium. The expected payouts wouldn't have much bearing on tickets, accidents, credit rating etc..

There is a macro variable that is used to see if you are a "claim happy" client.

That is the reason no minor to moderate claim should ever be filed.

:B


Things ya pick up with several major insurance actuarial science research centers next door.

Like I stated before, I never had prior insurance claims on any one of my vehicles, and never had any traffic violation. I have excellent credit rating above 800 by all three major agencies. I got a quote for a F-350 yet to be delivered (to be delivered next week). If you guys are interested in an experiment, you can log onto Geico website and get a quote. MBI comes up as the very last question. But it would be interesting if Huntingdog can log in and get an experimental quote for F-350 Dually 2012 and see how much of MBI difference you'd see.

Huntingdog, are you up for a little experiment? Please report back to us.

Actually I had already tried that. I just tried again. The links to quote an additional vehicle are not working. I just tried for a new quote, and into the process, it stopped me with a message saying that this was for new customers only, please click here to continue....Clicking here took me back to the page with the broken links....I did fill out their survey complaining about the broken links.:M

Hmmmm.....that's interesting.... Huntingdog, how can Geico insure your new additional vehicle if they don't let you shop and get a quote? I guess you maybe stuck with D/A forever! Thanks for trying for us....

Anyway...back to Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation.