Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
The purpose of a return line filter is not to "save" the system, but merely to limit damage (debris in tank and damage to fuel tank / pump / etc.).

If the damage is not excessive (nothing in injectors, etc.) then the repair job will be just flushing the lines and replacement of pump --- and not flushing tank and entire fuel system.

My understanding is injectors are not replaced as part of the repair as of now.

Injectors are replaced on all VW's and Audi's, pretty sure Bosch replaces them on all failures with HPFP, to eliminate contamination issues or a needle valve sticking open caught up with debris, which on a Common rail, would burn a hole through the piston and have a runaway motor.

[NewsW]

The purpose of a return line filter is not to "save" the system, but merely to limit damage (debris in tank and damage to fuel tank / pump / etc.).

If the damage is not excessive (nothing in injectors, etc.) then the repair job will be just flushing the lines and replacement of pump --- and not flushing tank and entire fuel system.

My understanding is injectors are not replaced as part of the repair as of now.

[BenK]

I don't think any filter will help ENOUGH, as the debris is created in several
areas. The worst place is inside the cam cavity. Hammering, cavitation, etc

Rick confirmed that to me when he reported back that the piston bottom that
rides on the cam follower was hammered

That would have the potential of debris floating inside the cam cavity. That would
then have the potential of screwing up the DLC surfaces or any mating surfaces.
Down stream through the intake for the piston/cylinder will have this stuff and
then into the distribution system to the injectors

Return lines abound in this system and yes, a filter in any one of these return
runs can't hurt, but think they won't save it, as the cam cavity is the
source of the debris, IMHO

I'm not sold on the time of year, other than that is when folks crawl out of
the winter dull-drums and go camping clocking many, many more miles.

Think that winter storage also has the heat/cool cycles to condense any moisture
in the diesel system to then create ideal conditions for H2O damage (cavitation
is my main thought)

[ricatic]

This was discussed ad nauseum at FTE. The general consensus was a return line filter would be a difficult accomplishment.

[NewsW]

I'd like to hear from every contributor on here, but I think we know enough to say there is something not right that is not due to customer error / negligence, bad fuel, etc.

My thoughts is that adding a fuel filter to the return line should be considered.

Rick and others with the vehicle -- can you talk to us about this?

How hard is it to add a good sized filter on the return line?

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
Thoughts re new case files.

The disturbing thing is the vehicles are extremely carefully used by professional drivers that is unlikely to misfuel, and all fuel purchases are documented and available for audit.

Low mileage at initial failure suggest something real bad.

The question is, summer is coming --- could it be that if heat is related to failure, that a rash of failures is coming in August?

That --- is the question.

If there is not a rash of failures in the sample by Sept / Oct, then the heat hypothesis did not work.

Pump failure is cumulative.... there is a lag time from when damage starts to when the complete fuel failure occurs, in my observation. I'd summarize data based on a Dec 31st date.

What is the story on GM failures for these model years? Do they correspond also, or is it just based on Ford Data? I am still observing HPFP failures on TDI club now, in warm weather southern tier states... Florida, Texas, etc.

[NewsW]

Thoughts re new case files.

The disturbing thing is the vehicles are extremely carefully used by professional drivers that is unlikely to misfuel, and all fuel purchases are documented and available for audit.

Low mileage at initial failure suggest something real bad.

The question is, summer is coming --- could it be that if heat is related to failure, that a rash of failures is coming in August?

That --- is the question.

If there is not a rash of failures in the sample by Sept / Oct, then the heat hypothesis did not work.

[NewsW]

This is to confirm that an audit of failures conducted on weibull's posts showed:

2011 Model Year failures are likely the cause of a bad batch, and accordingly, they are deleted from the sample.

However, 3 confirmed cases are in 2012 models.

They were meticulously maintained, and had relatively low mileage (under 10,000miles) when they failed.

Fuel was purchased from high volume fuel dealers that are reputable, and no non-Ford additives were used.

Drivers are professionals who are unlikely to misfuel or notice anything amiss and ignore it.

Therefore, the data, with the above caution noted, is now entered in our knowledge base as confirmed.

[NinerBikes]

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

NewsW wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:


It may also explain, thermal load, why Bosch went with an all aluminum design, including for the bore, instead of cast iron like on a CP3.

If I were to guess, the reason for aluminum is mostly to do with cost.

It is much cheaper to cast aluminum, though the thermal properties is an added bonus.

Their key bragging rights is the pump is both cheaper and higher pressure.

I don't think they have any bragging rights when it comes to this pump. If you can run it using the currant grade of fuel in the USA then it is useless, right?

We know they deleted an intermediate stage (gear pump). That is a very big chunk of the cost factor right there.

It did occur to me that with heat... deformation of the casting is a distinct possibility.

If you ever see a stronger / reinforced casting in later versions, that is your clue.

We have a saying in Mountain biking parts and racing:

Strong, cheap, light. Pick any two.

[Perrysburg_Dodg]

NewsW wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:


It may also explain, thermal load, why Bosch went with an all aluminum design, including for the bore, instead of cast iron like on a CP3.

If I were to guess, the reason for aluminum is mostly to do with cost.

It is much cheaper to cast aluminum, though the thermal properties is an added bonus.

Their key bragging rights is the pump is both cheaper and higher pressure.

I don't think they have any bragging rights when it comes to this pump. If you can run it using the currant grade of fuel in the USA then it is useless, right?

We know they deleted an intermediate stage (gear pump). That is a very big chunk of the cost factor right there.

It did occur to me that with heat... deformation of the casting is a distinct possibility.

If you ever see a stronger / reinforced casting in later versions, that is your clue.

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:


It may also explain, thermal load, why Bosch went with an all aluminum design, including for the bore, instead of cast iron like on a CP3.

If I were to guess, the reason for aluminum is mostly to do with cost.

It is much cheaper to cast aluminum, though the thermal properties is an added bonus.

Their key bragging rights is the pump is both cheaper and higher pressure.

We know they deleted an intermediate stage (gear pump). That is a very big chunk of the cost factor right there.

It did occur to me that with heat... deformation of the casting is a distinct possibility.

If you ever see a stronger / reinforced casting in later versions, that is your clue.

[NewsW]

stsmark wrote:
Niner you missed a golden opportunity to add to the knowledge base here, that metal slag in the Volume Control Valve bore should have been sent to an oil sample lab for material analysis to identify the metals.

The good news is that Niner is just another trip to the dealer away from being able to get more samples!

[stsmark]

No disrespect but Niner you missed a golden opportunity to add to the knowledge base here, that metal slag in the Volume Control Valve bore should have been sent to an oil sample lab for material analysis to identify the metals.

Thermal issues for the fuel must be non trivial here, look at the water/ fuel coolers both VW and Ford (I'M sure GM is doing the same thing) are using. Ford feeds this direct from the Secondary Radiator with a 113 F thermostat. Anybody know if VW has a split cooling system like Ford?

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
There is a pressure relieve valve that bleeds off high pressure fuel once operating pressure is reached in the fuel system.

So no, not the entire energy load at maximum is being bled into tank, but there is certainly transfer of energy to fuel.

Another source of transfer is the heat in the engine compartment, and also via the mounting of the pump to engine.

IIRC, there was a patent that address the thermal transfer issue from engine / pump mounting.

Clearly, management of thermal loads for the pump and not overheating fuel is a major consideration in pump design.

It may also explain, thermal load, why Bosch went with an all aluminum design, including for the bore, instead of cast iron like on a CP3.

[NewsW]

There is a pressure relieve valve that bleeds off high pressure fuel once operating pressure is reached in the fuel system.

So no, not the entire energy load at maximum is being bled into tank, but there is certainly transfer of energy to fuel.

Another source of transfer is the heat in the engine compartment, and also via the mounting of the pump to engine.

IIRC, there was a patent that address the thermal transfer issue from engine / pump mounting.

Clearly, management of thermal loads for the pump and not overheating fuel is a major consideration in pump design.