Modification ideas for boondocking

[Bluebeard]

I've got some ideas and I thought I'd run it by you guys (gals):

First of all I have an 2002 Arctic Fox 24-5N 5er which I plan on exclusively using for boondocking in the high mountain western states. I bought the trailer for a song, and I am not concerned about losing resale value. No hookups- ever- so here are my thoughts:

1. I will NEVER use the rooftop air conditioner. NEVER. And if I were in a location where I needed cooler "conditioning" I would most likely build a 5 gal bucket swamp cooler. So I was thinking of taking off the AC from the roof and putting a vent in there. However, the AC hole in the roof has remote vent lines taking off from the cut out in the roof. So I was thinking, for heating and cooling, to modify the vent fan such that the actual fan was located BELOW the intakes to the vents. If I wanted to spread conditioned air (hot or cold) through out the trailer, I just need to turn on the fan with the vent top closed, and I would assume the air would be spread around the camper. Yes/No?

2. I plan on putting in a Cat heater as the cycling of the forced air fan on the furnace at night keeps me awake. So I was thinking of replacing the stock furnace with a Wave 6 heater mounted pretty much in the same location as where the furnace was. I was thinking of taking out the furnace, and then putting in a low speed (quiet) muffin type fan at the entrance of the heater ducts where the furnace used to be and to have a switch where I could turn on the muffin fan on the really cold nights to circulate (at a low speed) the cabin heat down to the basement.

Is this plausible? Any suggestions for a decent 4' 12v fan that is quiet and moves air?

3. Has anyone ever considered setting up a mini drainback solar hydronic system on the roof to preheat the water for the hot water heater? I would be pretty simple to set up with some black tubing on the roof, and it would run on sunny days. When you came back from hiking, maybe the water in the hot tank would be 120F, so you wouldn't need to fire up the furnace.

Thanks for any insight.

[n7bsn]

Bluebeard wrote:
The thought of dual pane windows intrigued me...... until I looked them up on google and found that each window was going to cost me <$500 per window. ....

Are you certain your Fox isn't already DP, something like 90% of the rigs shipped are dual pane, half of the rest have sp and storm windows, something like 5% have single pane only.

[n7bsn]

Bluebeard wrote:
...

Although I am "hooked" up to the grid, my monthly utility bill (in one of the coldest/snowiest spots in the nation) is about $7 a month all year and $100/mo for propane from Nov-March. Probably less than what most everyone in the US pays for running ANY sort of living space. ....

If you think it's colder then eastern Montana, North Dakota or Minnesota you need to spend some time there... If highs for the day of -40 don't change your mind, the first snows come in Nov and the last in May or June...no kidding, the five years I was in college it snowed four of the five years in early June

[westend]

Bluebeard wrote:
Westend- I checked out your signature. No Fair- you do AWESOME WORK! I aspire to do the kind of work you do. There is NO WAY I will go to the extent you went to, but - seriously- you did it right. A good friend who is a finish carpenter is looking to do what you did, so I will forward your link to him. I am sure he will get some great ideas from your project.

Great job chronicling your project.

Thanks, I tried to show how most of it was done so others can see that, if an old Swede can get something done half right, they can too. I hope others get some inspiration from it. Chronicling it kept me on task, also.

Really, this trailer restoring is pretty simple stuff. It does involve some dedication to the time to complete. My local Craigslist always has a few project trailers that need completion. I guess some folks give up when faced with the amount of time or effort involved.

I'd suggest to build out your trailer the way you want it. Put some of those great ideas into the build. The hydronic heating is a great idea. One member here is using a magnetic pump to recirculate heated water. No noise and moves a lot of water.

Good luck on your project. Post some pictures if you can.

[Bluebeard]

Westend- I checked out your signature. No Fair- you do AWESOME WORK! I aspire to do the kind of work you do. There is NO WAY I will go to the extent you went to, but - seriously- you did it right. A good friend who is a finish carpenter is looking to do what you did, so I will forward your link to him. I am sure he will get some great ideas from your project.

Great job chronicling your project.

[Bluebeard]

The thought of dual pane windows intrigued me...... until I looked them up on google and found that each window was going to cost me <$500 per window. At this point in time, I will need to find another alternative until I can afford to dump $2000 for dual windows. A web site I have gone a lot to in the past has an interesting low cost solution for insulating your glass- Bubblewrap!!! check it out: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/bubblewrap.htm This guy has some great ideas about a lot of stuff. A couple of days ago I was at Home Depot buying the reflectivix stuff- looks like I will take it back and try a bubblewrap alternative.

[hclark]

I would use a wave 8 heater instead of a wave 6. I have used both in a 32 foot class A. The extra heat is useful. My heater is on legs and I use a 12 foot hose with quick connectors rated for propane use. The heat is directional so it helps to be able to move it around. I keep the heater in the shower with a cover on it when not in use . Have used it at 7000 foot elevation with no problems.

[Bluebeard]

Westend- sounds like you did it right. Quite a project though...... Don't know if my wife would let me tear the camper down THAT MUCH. I have a reputation with her as being a bit of a hack. I never really learned finish carpentry, so my "good job" in a finish carpenter's eyes isn't as much so. I have good ideas, the implementation sometimes leaves a little bit to be desired. I enjoy looking at the craftsman work of those projects noted on this site as it is an inspiration for me. The older I get, the better job I want to do.

[Vulcan_Rider]

Bluebeard wrote:
and foam is better for temps below.

Are you aware, Low E is used to keep HEAT OUT is of less benefit to warm a space

Foam is always better as it has a much higher E value per inch.

And the low E glass blocks the passage of IR heat radiation.

That is most pronounced and significant from direct suns rays. It is much less useful when there simply is a temperature difference that is not due to direct sun. The Low E glass gives much more impressive results when it is a good double or triple pane.

Most of the heat loss inside to out is not due to IR but to conduction, convection and air leakage.

[westend]

Bluebeard wrote:
Westend- sounds like you went to some extremes. Apparently my Arctic Fox is pretty well insulated..... that being said, apparently fiberglass insulation is good down to about 35F, and foam is better for temps below. What did you use for your insulation? I'd love to get some foam in the floors in the "basement" but I am not sure I am up for THAT project this late in the fall season.

Are you aware, Low E is used to keep HEAT OUT is of less benefit to warm a space (as it mainly blocks heat from entering). That was my mistake building my house, I didn't know that fact and all my S facing glass is Low E. Where I live, summer warming isn't an issue (if you design your roof line correctly) and winter warming is huge. My bad. I guess in a travel trailer, the Low E would be the best benefit for that glass- a house not so much if it is designed correctly.

I'll check your pics out, as it seems as you and I are on the same page.

Extreme yes, but outfitted for extreme weather (ND oil patch in Winter).

I spent two weeks insulating. The insulation is as follows: From the aluminum siding and roof skin inward--a 1" piece of fiberglass batt (for accommodating wires), a 1" extruded foam board cut to fit cavities (roof got 2"), across the studs and ceiling rafters 4 mil vapor barrier, inboard of the vapor barrier, a 1/4" fan fold foam thermal break, the wood paneling.
The floor had a sheet of 3/4" Celotex fiber board between the aluminum belly skin and the floor joists. I filled the cavities with 1 1/2" extruded foam board. The living space now has laminate flooring with attached back across a sheet of rubber underlayment.

The problem with travel trailers is that you have limited dimensions. These mfg's that tout R-39 in the ceiling and R-19 in the walls are misleading the public. They derive these figures from the use of Reflectix foil insulation that lists R-30 something. That is only true in a 3 1/2" cavity that is perfectly sealed. Perfectly sealed is never going to happen.

The windows I used just happened to have the Low-E treatment. I was looking for a thermal paned slider and that was what was on hand. I believe, in MN, it is code now. Regardless, they are miles better than the glass jalousies I had.

The result from the insulation and windows is that this is the quietest space I have been in. It is also easy to heat and cool. In the summer, if I let in the cool night air, the inside won't reach ambient until late in the afternoon.

[Bluebeard]

Westend- sounds like you went to some extremes. Apparently my Arctic Fox is pretty well insulated..... that being said, apparently fiberglass insulation is good down to about 35F, and foam is better for temps below. What did you use for your insulation? I'd love to get some foam in the floors in the "basement" but I am not sure I am up for THAT project this late in the fall season.

Are you aware, Low E is used to keep HEAT OUT is of less benefit to warm a space (as it mainly blocks heat from entering). That was my mistake building my house, I didn't know that fact and all my S facing glass is Low E. Where I live, summer warming isn't an issue (if you design your roof line correctly) and winter warming is huge. My bad. I guess in a travel trailer, the Low E would be the best benefit for that glass- a house not so much if it is designed correctly.

I'll check your pics out, as it seems as you and I are on the same page.

[westend]

I chose to use a vented "Sportsman" heater instead of the trailer's forced air furnace. It uses no electricity and the pilot is usually enough to keep warm inside once the interior is heated.

The biggest thing I did for my off-grid trailer was to pull the paneling and get some decent insulation in walls, floor, and ceiling. I also changed/removed most of the windows, replacing with Low-E sliders. I can easily heat the trailer with a 1500W heater at home or at the pedestal.

All of the fresh water supply is inside the trailer. I am still working on drain and tank heating, planning on using heat tapes and cords in a fully insulated drain/tank enclosure. This removes the need for exchanging any heated air to keep the tanks/drains functional.

I have one 235W solar module and 300 AH of battery capacity. I use a 120V dorm fridge for refrigeration. An inverter with the rest of the solar system runs all of the entertainment gear, chargers, and the fridge.

Pictures of what I did are in the restoration thread in my sig line, "the Cowboy/Hilton".

I have thought about putting a black tank on the roof for hot water but I use little for bathing and cleaning so the trailer's water heater is adequate for that. I am thinking of using the solar controller's load output and a 12V element to heat the water in my steel fresh water tank. If I go that route, I'll also install a heat exchanger for hydronic heat.

[Bluebeard]

Todd- NOW you're talking! I like the way Todd thinks.


Tomman58- "Survival Mode"- I currently live a "pretty high life" in what you call "Survival mode" at my home in Truckee (and NO I am not a survivalist!): 2700 sqft home, 5 Kw solar, 3.0Kw Wind Turbine, Solar Hydronic hot water that heats both my greenhouse and works as supplemental heat to my in floor hyrdonic heat in my home. In my eyes, life is good and can't get much better.

Although I am "hooked" up to the grid, my monthly utility bill (in one of the coldest/snowiest spots in the nation) is about $7 a month all year and $100/mo for propane from Nov-March. Probably less than what most everyone in the US pays for running ANY sort of living space.

So, in my case "survival mode" works fine for me, thank you very much. I am just looking for ways to extend it to my rv. In my opinion, most RV's are set up for pulling into trailer parks and "hooking up". And (as noted before with the link to the $500K RV) unless you are willing to drop a cool $500K to have an "off-grid" rv built for you, I am stuck trying to retro what I have to maximize my efficiency (and I don't have an "extra $500k laying around). Fortunately the wisdom gathered from forums like this are invaluable in my search for maximum efficiency.

I guess "max efficiency" doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me. Like I said previously- it's how I think.

[toddb]

Bluebeard wrote:
Todd, do you have any photos? Diagrams? I'd be interested to see what you did.

Did you add the Atwood as a supplemental heater? or do you have a heat exchanger, where you are heating both domestic hot water and the cabin? I am severely space limited in my 24.5 foot 5th wheel, so I wouldn't have room for a "spare" anything, mechanical.

My first rev I used the existing water heater, proof of concept. Now I use a separate water heater dedicated for the heater. You should consider a water heater with a motor loop from a motorhome, they have a built in heat exchanger so you would save space and allow the use of glycol.
This system works extremely well, I didn't want combustion in the trailer and we often camp over 8000'. We only dry camp so power consumption is a concern. I'll work on getting pictures in a few days.

[tomman58]

Good luck with your survival mode.

[Vulcan_Rider]

Bill.Satellite wrote:
I am not sure why the naysayers post the most often and as quickly as possible

The "what if's" provided by what you term "naysayers" are usually very important. Even you went on to point out the potential life threatening hazard posed by an unvented heater.