Question on Pin Weight and Toy Haulers

[miboje]

Take it easy on me - I am a female still learning about this stuff, so I apologize if this is a loaded or dumb question!

Our truck, a 2003 F-350 PSD, allows for 2100 lbs. of pin weight. The toy haulers we are considering have a pin weight of 2400 lbs.+/-. How much weight do we need to put in the garage to lighten the toy hauler's pin weight to an acceptable weight? Or is this going to be running too close to our limit?

Thank you for your help.

Bobbi

[Doughboy12]

miboje wrote:
They are listing the pin weight at over 200 lbs. less than stated on Heartland's web site. Of course, the trailer is a little heavier with those options, but not a lot.

Yes because I am sure that is an accurate weight...dealers NEVER lie to make a sale. 200lbs less WITH a generator...makes no sense to me.

[miboje]

lincster wrote:
Don't mean to be a downer, but I am not believing those weight numbers from Heartland.

I weighed my trailer on a CAT scale the day I brought it home.
9000lbs on the axles and 2600lbs on the pin, total of 11,600 lbs and that was a totally empty trailer!!!!!

That Heartland has 3 slides to it and slides are heavy.
I would ask the dealer if they will take it to a scale before I bought it, if you are concerned with weights.

Good point, and it may not necessarily be a downer. I went on the net and found a dealer with one on the lot with all the options I would order, except one. I would not order the installed generator. They are listing the pin weight at over 200 lbs. less than stated on Heartland's web site. Of course, the trailer is a little heavier with those options, but not a lot.
That's good advice; if it comes down to it, we could always ask a dealer to verify things for us.

[lincster]

Don't mean to be a downer, but I am not believing those weight numbers from Heartland.

I weighed my trailer on a CAT scale the day I brought it home.
9000lbs on the axles and 2600lbs on the pin, total of 11,600 lbs and that was a totally empty trailer!!!!!

That Heartland has 3 slides to it and slides are heavy.
I would ask the dealer if they will take it to a scale before I bought it, if you are concerned with weights.

[miboje]

Macman83 wrote:
Point is, don't bite off more than you are willing to chew. If you are worried that your rig, whatever it may be, will be too much for you to handle, then it probably will be. Cut back to your comfortable weight/length/configuration and I can guarantee you that you will enjoy camping much more, and will probably do it more often.

Thank you. Your input is very helpful, and we absolutely agree. It's stories such as yours that help confirm things for prospective buyers like us, so thank you for sharing it.

And just to be clear to everyone - I don't think I conveyed any anger or demonstrated any disagreement towards anyone anywhere regarding whether or not they thought our truck can handle this particular RV. It is what it is - I was simply asking whether or not pin weight could be adjusted with a load in the garage.

I agree that we should never bite off more than we think the truck can handle. I don't want us to find ourselves sitting along a road with a broken down truck - we need that truck to haul firewood. Problem is, we're right at the borderline with all the numbers if we go with this particular model - which is the *only* toy hauler that we are currently considering. If anyone wants to see what those numbers are, check here(scroll down a bit): Heartland Torque TQ 325
I definitely don't want to buy this toy hauler only to realize afterwards that we really shouldn't have. I just don't know what to do because it's so close to what the truck can handle according to specs.

I know that people pull over their truck's specs all the time, and we don't hear about the DOT, at least not here in PA, cracking down on iffy looking setups. Not yet, anyhow. By they way, there is someone on the rv-dreams.com forum that is hauling a big ole DRV with an older Dodge 2500 DRW! There's just no way we'd even consider doing something like that.

[lincster]

Macman83 wrote:
because friends who should know said that with the mods that I had done, the truck should be fine.

This is why I educate my friends on numbers/etc. Sometimes friends are like salesman, they tell you what you want to hear.

They don't like what I have to say sometimes, but I give them the straight truth.

A big toyhauler needs a big truck.
Any toyhauler in the 35-45' range needs a 1 ton dually minimum.
F450 like you bought, at least the 2008-2010 models, is the optimum truck for towing big trailers.

[Macman83]

Just my 2 cents. I speak from experience when I tell you that your F350 SRW will pull a big trailer. Mine was a 2000 F350 SRW 7.3 diesel crewcab and I had upgraded it to around 350HP with a chip and exhaust. I also added firestone airbags to the rear axle and high quality brakes. The GCVWR on my truck was listed as 20000,(which BTW is the same for a DRW) and at the scale the truck weighed 7200lbs with 1/2 tank of gas and me. I calculated that I could put 3900 pounds on the hitch and still be within my limit as the firestone tires have a weight rating of 3450 each,(6900lbs for the axle). So our trailer was purchased and the pin weight empty was 3200. So I knew that I was going to be running close to my weight limits for the axle and I was over the GCVWR of the truck, but I was going to be driving on the interstates, in the flat lands of the midwest and felt that I would be OK if I was careful, kept the speed down and didn't push the rig to hard.

I pulled the trailer on 3 trips from 60 miles one way to 300 miles one way. The last and longest trip was the 300 miles through Oklahoma on an average windy (15-20MPH) day for Oklahoma. After 2 1/2 hours of driving, I was worn out and had to stop. The truck pulled the trailer ok, and the tire temps and engine gauges were fine, no overloaded condition, not working the engine to hard. The problem was that the trailer was pushing the SRW around just enough that I had to keep my concentration on the road without a break. Speed was 60-65 on straight flat 4 lane, but the truck still wanted to squirm around in the wind. It was a lesson well learned, because friends who should know said that with the mods that I had done, the truck should be fine.

So, in the end, we are fortunate that we can afford to replace the 2000 F350 with a 2010 F450. We got a really good deal on the new/used truck, and I can assure you that it has the numbers to pull my 16K 5er. On the first trip with it, we logged 540 miles, and were calm and relaxed even in some hills in Arkansas. The big dually handled the trailer beautifully.

OK, so didn't realize that I was rambling on here... Point is, don't bite off more than you are willing to chew. If you are worried that your rig, whatever it may be, will be too much for you to handle, then it probably will be. Cut back to your comfortable weight/length/configuration and I can guarantee you that you will enjoy camping much more, and will probably do it more often.

And please everyone...don't waste your time telling me that I was crazy to think that my old truck could do the job. I already know that, and have since solved that problem. I learned an important lesson, and hope that this helps the OP in some way.

[mapguy]

miboje wrote:

720Deere wrote:
When it comes to fresh water, the Fuzion has the fresh tank directly over the axle . Whether empty or full, the fresh water doesn't really affect pin weight. The problem is the trip home if you aren't able to dump the tanks. The black tank is all the way forward and the grey tanks are just behind it so they will add to the pin weight as water is added to them.

Very good point to bring up. This was actually something that dawned on us as we were discussing the issue last evening. That could throw us one way or the other, and the idea of a lighter weight, roomy, well insulated toy hauler may be completely off our list.

This is why you need to figure the range of tongue or pin weights possible with a trailer. The Dry weight numbers will only be good for the maiden voyage home without stuff loaded. Tongue hitch percentage as determined by factory is easily arrived at and extrapolated to a trailer at fully gvwr. hitch weight divided by dry weight is the designed hitch %. trailer gvwr times designed hitch % gives hitch weight @ trailer gvwr. Calculating the hitch/pin weight ranges below gives your the typical range that hitch/pin can be for a trailer.

Tongue trailers need 10-15% of loaded trailer weight for best towing.
Fifth wheel trailers like 15-25% PIN weight for best towing. Both situations depend on a level to very minute nose high trailer frame for proper setup.

Fifth wheels always tow better IMO and have better usable length.

Lincster is conservative in his interpretation of vehicle towing capacity. Your truck is much more capable than the factory tow ratings, but modifications maybe necessary like tires, wheels, hitching system, suspension plus a legal ability, in your home state to up-rate the truck gvwr by purchasing additional tonnage.

Hope this all helps and is not to much info or not explained enough....as I am on the road to Idaho for 6 days of single track motorcycle riding.

[miboje]

720Deere wrote:
When it comes to fresh water, the Fuzion has the fresh tank directly over the axle . Whether empty or full, the fresh water doesn't really affect pin weight. The problem is the trip home if you aren't able to dump the tanks. The black tank is all the way forward and the grey tanks are just behind it so they will add to the pin weight as water is added to them.

Very good point to bring up. This was actually something that dawned on us as we were discussing the issue last evening. That could throw us one way or the other, and the idea of a lighter weight, roomy, well insulated toy hauler may be completely off our list.

[Bedlam]

Payload and GVWR are higher on the SRW F350 than the F250 as stated above. Some years, the only mechanical difference was a taller axle spacer and higher rated wheels. GCWR was the same for both. The DRW F350 starts to differ considerably from the SRW F350.

[lincster]

TxTiger wrote:
The F250's and F350 SWD of that era have the same tow and payload ratings. I did a lot of research when I was considering a 5th wheel and found that a KZ Sportsman Sportster (dry pin weights between 1,370 and 1,560) and the Puma (351 THSS with dry pin weight of 1,481) were the only possiblities to fit within the payload requirements. Nice units too for the budget minded.

Not true. 350's have always had higher GVWR than 250's. Both have had the same GCWR, but not GVWR. Payload is GVWR.

[720Deere]

When it comes to fresh water, the Fuzion has the fresh tank directly over the axle . Whether empty or full, the fresh water doesn't really affect pin weight. The problem is the trip home if you aren't able to dump the tanks. The black tank is all the way forward and the grey tanks are just behind it so they will add to the pin weight as water is added to them.

[miboje]

lincster wrote:

miboje wrote:

lincster wrote:

stsmark wrote:
To the OP, you actually have a very capable truck, it will pull up to a 36' 2 axle 5ver nicely. Yes the paper ratings don't jive but with good tires ( Load E with 3750 wt Cap ) , well maintained running gear and a level head behind the wheel you should have some fun trips.
A larger hauler I definitely recommend more truck.
Have fun

I wouldn't want a 2 axle 36' toy hauler..... Not with the weights I put inside of mine.

We won't be taking any toys, so that doesn't bother me. See, I don't want a toy hauler to haul toys - I want it for that multifunctional garage space.

We'll take our bicycles and oversize intertubes, but I really only want a toy hauler for the versatility of the garage. We need space for the kids to sleep, but I don't want to give up valuable floor space to a bunk room. The toy hauler garage affords us two queen beds, and a great, spacious hang-out area with the addition of a patio deck, and a dining room for when it rains or is a bit chilly to be outside.

Ok, in your first post, you asked how much weight you have to put in to help offset the pin weight. So.......... I figured it was safe to assume that you were putting actual toys in the garage, not bicycles.... LOL

You're right about that, but we are planning on buying a mobile outdoor kitchen(not the chincy ones, but a heavier one on wheels), a generator, and we could - if need be - store items back there that we would normally put in the belly storage compartment for transport - filled ice chest, drinking water, etc. That's what we *were* thinking, along with bicycles and other stuff, that perhaps we could put enough of our stuff back there to offset some of the weight.

[TxTiger]

The F250's and F350 SWD of that era have the same tow and payload ratings. I did a lot of research when I was considering a 5th wheel and found that a KZ Sportsman Sportster (dry pin weights between 1,370 and 1,560) and the Puma (351 THSS with dry pin weight of 1,481) were the only possiblities to fit within the payload requirements. Nice units too for the budget minded.

[lincster]

miboje wrote:

lincster wrote:

stsmark wrote:
To the OP, you actually have a very capable truck, it will pull up to a 36' 2 axle 5ver nicely. Yes the paper ratings don't jive but with good tires ( Load E with 3750 wt Cap ) , well maintained running gear and a level head behind the wheel you should have some fun trips.
A larger hauler I definitely recommend more truck.
Have fun

I wouldn't want a 2 axle 36' toy hauler..... Not with the weights I put inside of mine.

We won't be taking any toys, so that doesn't bother me. See, I don't want a toy hauler to haul toys - I want it for that multifunctional garage space.

We'll take our bicycles and oversize intertubes, but I really only want a toy hauler for the versatility of the garage. We need space for the kids to sleep, but I don't want to give up valuable floor space to a bunk room. The toy hauler garage affords us two queen beds, and a great, spacious hang-out area with the addition of a patio deck, and a dining room for when it rains or is a bit chilly to be outside.

Ok, in your first post, you asked how much weight you have to put in to help offset the pin weight. So.......... I figured it was safe to assume that you were putting actual toys in the garage, not bicycles.... LOL

[Bedlam]

N-Trouble wrote:
But you pay for that in the form of weight which is what the OP is trying to avoid. Desert Fox trailes have to be one of the heaviest on the market for their size. Years ago I towed one of their 28ft bumper pulls behind an 04 Durmax and couldn't believe how heavy it was for the size of trailer.

You pay for the quality and insulation in this build. My 22' Weekend Warrior FB2200 was 7500 lbs dry, so it was no featherweight either. The OP's truck will not have a problem with any bumper pull under 14K lbs although the receiver may need an upgrade for the bigger units.