Sorry...another tow vehicle capacity thread

[Phydeauxman]

Lets just get this out of the way up front. I am a newbie to camping that made an uninformed purchase of too much 5th wheel for the truck I have. I already own the camper and the truck so no going back on those decisions...now just trying to understand what the real potential consequences are.

My truck...2014 Ford F250 CC 4x4 SWB with the 6.7 Diesel...paid for. I have an automatic sliding hitch, have added Air Lift air bags to the truck as well as a BakFlip bed cover. I recently weighed the truck with just myself and about 6 gallons of diesel...the weight was 8320 lbs., the truck has a GVWR of 10000 lbs. leaving me with a payload capacity of 1680 lbs. I would say that my wife and kids add another 430 lbs., we carry about another 50 pounds of stuff in the cab with us, and then filling the 24 gallon tank would add another 130 lbs. Subtracting all of that...we are left with a payload capacity of about 1070 lbs.

My camper...2015 Grand Design Reflection 323BHS. The GVWR is 13995 lbs., the dry weight is 10780 lbs., and the hitch weight is 1980 lbs.

Based on my calculations for my truck...it appears we are over the GVWR of the truck by 910 lbs. When looking at other 5th wheels offered by Grand Design...my truck could not tow any of them and be within the GVWR of the truck. I am not sure if any manufacturer makes a 5th wheel with a hitch weight that will fit into the 1070 lb. capacity I have left.

When I bought the truck, I had no idea I would be going the camper route. I bought it to tow my aluminum car trailer and classic Mustang. A year later...the wife wants to start going camping...and the 5th wheel was my idea of roughing it. Being an impulse buyer that I am (I know how bad this is so no need to rub it in), we went and looked at a few models and bought the one that met our needs/desires. Of course, the dealer said towing it with the truck I had was going to be no problem. And it has not been any problem at all. We have not gone real far mind you but it tows like a dream and with the air bags pumped up to 65 lbs...truck sits perfectly level.

I know I am not alone out there as far as towing more 5ver than the truck is rated for...I think the most popular combo I see on the road is SRW truck with 5ver behind. And even if some of those are 350s/3500s...the GVWR capacity of those trucks isn't different from the 250s/2500s.

Since I can't un-buy the truck or the camper (especially the camper)...I am trying to find out what the real potential consequences are from continuing to tow with the truck I have. I know it is not the limitations of the engine/transmission because they put the same engine/transmission in the 350s and 450s. Is it the brakes not being able to appropriately stop the vehicle? To make matters worse...I had plan to replace the stock/original fuel tank with a tank that basically doubles the capacity...so I don't have to stop every 250 miles for fuel. Doing this would add another 180 lbs. on top of the weight I detailed above.

[MitchF150]

Taken from Ford Parts Online web site..





Mitch

[goducks10]

IDman wrote:
Let us know when you will be hitched up and traveling because I don't want to be anywhere in front of you when you try to stop!

Just because "others do it" doesn't mean it is safe, legal, or right!

If he's not over the GCVWR then he'll stop just fine. Trailers have brakes too. It's no different towing a 5er at max GVW and the truck under GVW vs the truck over GVW and the 5er under max GVW. GCVWR is the sum of both.

[AH64ID]

OH48Lt wrote:
After reading all the doom and gloom responses, there are a few that are on the money. First of all, the F250 with the 10K GVWR package and the F350 are essentially the same truck except for the rear spring blocks and sticker on the door. The frame, brakes (yes, even the brake pads....), axle, all the same. I do have two questions though. 1) how did you get a 10K package with 20" rims? Those 20" rims and tires are your weak point. Get some 17 or 18 inch with LR-E LT tires. 2) 8300 pounds empty is very high. My 2005 F250 CC 4x4 short wheel base diesel (6.0), essentially the same configuration as yours, was 7600 pounds empty except for a full take of fuel. Big difference.

I towed my KZ 33' toy hauler all over the Rockies with no issues at all. Pulled it fine, hauled like a dream, stopped extremely well.

What is the weak point of the 20" rims?

Per some Ford info the 18" and 20" wheels have the same rating, which is higher than the 17's. Thou the vehicles with 20's may have a 100lb lower GVWR than just 18's. 17's appear to be lower yet.

17's should be the bottom of the list for heavy use, they are generally capped at 3195lbs. Those that aren't yet will be. If you look back a couple years tires that where once rated at 3750 are now 3195... This is a 17" exclusive issue based on a federal reg.

Ford lists the curb weight around 8200lbs on the OP's truck. Who knows what that includes (bumper, spare tire, radio?) with a 5th wheel hitch and options 8500lbs seems legit.

[Phydeauxman]

OH48Lt wrote:
After reading all the doom and gloom responses, there are a few that are on the money. First of all, the F250 with the 10K GVWR package and the F350 are essentially the same truck except for the rear spring blocks and sticker on the door. The frame, brakes (yes, even the brake pads....), axle, all the same. I do have two questions though. 1) how did you get a 10K package with 20" rims? Those 20" rims and tires are your weak point. Get some 17 or 18 inch with LR-E LT tires. 2) 8300 pounds empty is very high. My 2005 F250 CC 4x4 short wheel base diesel (6.0), essentially the same configuration as yours, was 7600 pounds empty except for a full take of fuel. Big difference.

I towed my KZ 33' toy hauler all over the Rockies with no issues at all. Pulled it fine, hauled like a dream, stopped extremely well.

Thanks for your reply...good to get some first hand experience from someone. As for your questions...1) I did not order the truck...that was how it was built/optioned by Ford. Specifications do change a little each year so maybe that is what the 20s can handle now. As for #2...that is the only real world reference point I have right now. I plan to go get another weighing with the tank fully loaded and the 5ver attached.

[OH48Lt]

After reading all the doom and gloom responses, there are a few that are on the money. First of all, the F250 with the 10K GVWR package and the F350 are essentially the same truck except for the rear spring blocks and sticker on the door. The frame, brakes (yes, even the brake pads....), axle, all the same. I do have two questions though. 1) how did you get a 10K package with 20" rims? Those 20" rims and tires are your weak point. Get some 17 or 18 inch with LR-E LT tires. 2) 8300 pounds empty is very high. My 2005 F250 CC 4x4 short wheel base diesel (6.0), essentially the same configuration as yours, was 7600 pounds empty except for a full take of fuel. Big difference.

I towed my KZ 33' toy hauler all over the Rockies with no issues at all. Pulled it fine, hauled like a dream, stopped extremely well.

[Phydeauxman]

AH64ID wrote:

Phydeauxman wrote:


Thanks. Yeah...I have 2 must do's right now. 1) go get my truck/camper weighed at/on a CAT. 2) find out what makes an F-350 SRW have a GVWR of 11,500 lbs. versus 10,000 lbs., and see if I can adopt the differences onto my truck. I know that would not change the official rating but I am not too worried about what it can "officially" handle versus what it can real world handle.

You will find the difference is the sticker. Some people/companies don't want to deal with a Class III vehicle and the requirements associated with it. Dropping the GVWR to 10,000lbs keeps it a Class II vehicle.

Yeah, that is what I am finding but there has to be some difference between the rear suspension of the SRW F-350 and the rear suspension of my F-250.

[AH64ID]

Phydeauxman wrote:


Thanks. Yeah...I have 2 must do's right now. 1) go get my truck/camper weighed at/on a CAT. 2) find out what makes an F-350 SRW have a GVWR of 11,500 lbs. versus 10,000 lbs., and see if I can adopt the differences onto my truck. I know that would not change the official rating but I am not too worried about what it can "officially" handle versus what it can real world handle.

You will find the difference is the sticker. Some people/companies don't want to deal with a Class III vehicle and the requirements associated with it. Dropping the GVWR to 10,000lbs keeps it a Class II vehicle.

[Phydeauxman]

rexlion wrote:
Phydeauxman, the biggest issue you face IMO is the danger of a blowout from overloaded rear tires. You must weigh the rig and find out where you're at on the rear axle weight. Then look at your tire capacity.

My second concern would be the rear axle capacity, but from other posts here it sounds like it may be the same axle as the 350... I have no idea. If it were not the same, perhaps it could be swapped out. Same thing with suspension, if you wanted to swap out, but the air bags should do the job there.

Thanks. Yeah...I have 2 must do's right now. 1) go get my truck/camper weighed at/on a CAT. 2) find out what makes an F-350 SRW have a GVWR of 11,500 lbs. versus 10,000 lbs., and see if I can adopt the differences onto my truck. I know that would not change the official rating but I am not too worried about what it can "officially" handle versus what it can real world handle.

[AH64ID]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
I now know what the A H stands for in your user ID

Getting personal and defensive now 😄

Come on, you aren't going to buy your way out of this one and falsely justify it...

avvidclif1 wrote:

Have you ever compared the rear end on a dually to a SRW, obviously not. Big difference in the rear end.

What do you mean by rear end? The axle? The suspension? Everything?

But yes, and I know the components and ratings of such on the truck in discussion with willy.

[Wildwilly101]

I now know what the A H stands for in your user ID

[rexlion]

Phydeauxman, the biggest issue you face IMO is the danger of a blowout from overloaded rear tires. You must weigh the rig and find out where you're at on the rear axle weight. Then look at your tire capacity.

My second concern would be the rear axle capacity, but from other posts here it sounds like it may be the same axle as the 350... I have no idea. If it were not the same, perhaps it could be swapped out. Same thing with suspension, if you wanted to swap out, but the air bags should do the job there.

[avvidclif1]

AH64ID wrote:


I never once said to run overload.. go back and read it again!!! I stated that the sticker ratings were underrated. There is a BIG difference, surely you can understand that.

Your truck shared more than the front axle with a DRW of the same year. The Frame, front suspension, brakes, steering, and rear axle are all the same and rated the same. The difference, aside from DRW vs SRW, was rear suspension.
You don't have to believe me but I suggest you do the research yourself before you make more false statements. The information is out there if you spend the time looking, and it's really not that hard to find.

The 2015 air suspension is a perfect example of how what I am telling you is correct. It has weaker main leafs than your 2008 did and airbags... like I said rated at 9,750# RAWR and up to a 37,500# GCWR... Tell the Ram engineers that airbags cannot handle it in a dynamic load!!! Believe what you want to believe, but at least consider at the facts before you make your opinion. Facts should effect opinions, not the other way around.

Now you have spent the bucks on a new truck, so enjoy it!!! Just don't put false information out there to justify your purchase.

There are lots of reasons to get a DRW, but the main reason you claim you did (the rear suspension) was not one of them.

It is possible most of your issue was the tire choice, and not the suspension. Even a 3,750# LRE rated tire is going to have a LOT more flex and give than a pair of 3042# LRE tires. I have ran with LRE tires near their max rating and it indues a lot of movement into the truck and is one of the reasons I now run LRG tires.

IDman wrote:
Let us know when you will be hitched up and traveling because I don't want to be anywhere in front of you when you try to stop!

Just because "others do it" doesn't mean it is safe, legal, or right!

That could be the most useless comment of the thread for a couple of reasons.

Mostly because no pickup is designed to STOP the trailer.. the trailer brakes stop the trailer!!!

Have you ever compared the rear end on a dually to a SRW, obviously not. Big difference in the rear end.

[AH64ID]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
Check the diameter of the factory bags and compare to the aftermarket pogo sticks. Again you accuse me of putting out false information. You are dead wrong, everything I posted is absolutely true and factual. It may not align with your contentions that are fuzzy at best, but not false. The rear suspension could not handle the dynamic load at highway speeds. It was fine sitting still. So everyone take this man's advice, put air bags on your truck and hitch up to anything you want, You will be just fine. Right....

Factual in your world maybe.. Go ahead, keep justifying your purchase to yourself.

Like I said you ended up with a great truck, but not for the reasons you think.

You should really stop misquoting me, it makes you look like you are reaching for a diversion. I never said hitch up to anything you want... I simply corrected your false assumptions about the suspension differences.

[Wildwilly101]

Check the diameter of the factory bags and compare to the aftermarket pogo sticks. Again you accuse me of putting out false information. You are dead wrong, everything I posted is absolutely true and factual. It may not align with your contentions that are fuzzy at best, but not false. The rear suspension could not handle the dynamic load at highway speeds. It was fine sitting still. So everyone take this man's advice, put air bags on your truck and hitch up to anything you want, You will be just fine. Right....