Soliciting thoughts, considering building my own rig.

[RRoger]

Greetings,

This is my first post. I am thinking about selling my home and building my own rig to live in full time. While I have seen some amazing conversions and got a lot of great ideas, I am planning something a bit different.

My Dad full timed for 9 years. He started with a 26 foot class B, upgraded to a 39 foot Class A and a year later traded that in on a basement model.

He started towing his Buick Regal with a tow bar and ended up loosing it off a cliff when the tow bar broke. His next toad was a Ford Tempo with a tow dolly.

He primarily stayed at Naco or Thousand Trails membership parks and for several winters he had some sort of longer term park he stayed at in Yuma.

While this was his dream fulfilled, it seemed to me that he took a big hit on depreciation, and ended up not being able to find a buyer for his membership and ended up giving it away.

I find that I am not particularly pleased with how most RV's are built, hence my desire to build my own.

My plan (In the larval stage.) is to get a used 48 foot moving van (They have a lower floor than a regular semi trailer.) and convert it. When running down the road it will have the outward appearance of a regular semi (Park it anywhere trucks park, industrial areas, truck stops etc.) If camped in a campground the side will fold up for the awning and a patio area would fold down and a screen could then be zipped on.

On the other side access doors could be opened to get to the washer and dryer and panels covering the windows would hinge at the top for window awnings.

The walls, floor and roof will be very well insulated and the roof will be loaded with solar panels. I will be avoiding a lot of the RV appliances (I will have the space and I observe that anytime you buy something that is stamped RV the price triples.)

For heating I was thinking about putting radiant flooring and having zones and for the AC I was thinking about a mini split system again to allow for the ability to cool by zone. Also since the roof of the trailer is already going to be at or near maximum height there will be no room for a roof top AC.

In the back of the trailer I would have a jeep or some small car inside and a queen size bed above.

Below the floor I will have black and grey tanks as well as the battery banks.

I would like to be able to have enough capacity to go between 30 and 60 days in boondock mode.

I figure I have at least 10 years to work, so if I get a job as a long haul truck driver, parking the rig at the yard will be no problem and if I take a take a different kind of job, I can find a place to park in some sort of industrial area.

So I have some questions. How long can you boondock? What is your tank capacity (Fresh grey and black) and propane tank size?

How about those of you with solar cells? What is your set up? How many cells? How many batteries etc?

Also I would like to hear about your general thoughts and ideas. My thinking here is if you were going to design a rig to full time in, what changes would you make?

[Brynjolf]

I suspect that you'd be much better off by buying a used rig and retrofitting it, as opposed to creating your own.

As others have mentioned, many (if not most) RV parks and resorts won't allow something homebuilt to pass their entrance gates. Plus, most have a 20 year age limit, some have a 10 year age limit. Much like the clique of cheerleaders in highschool, appearance is key.

There's the question of overall length as well - you're limiting your destinations (and where you can stop during travel) with a rig that long. And weight; always be aware of the mass of what you'll be travelling with (and the fuel you'll be purchasing).

I suggest you flip your whole full-timing quest on its ear. Where do you want to travel to? Where do you want to explore? Where do you want to stay? Look at what others travel in, look at restrictions (age, length, type of rig, etc) of the places you want to stay - and start thinking about what kind of rig best suits your dreams.

[Naio]

Thinking about this more...

I assume you got the flip-up side idea from Amazing Spaces?

Be aware that that will involve a LOT of extra metal framing. Cutting the side removes all of the structural integrity of the truck box -- you will have to build a whole new framework for it, of a different, more complex design. If you saw the show, they did not go into detail but they have the whole RV down to the studs.

Plus, that moveable side weighs multi-hundred pounds, so you will not be lifting it on your own. You will need machinery.

It would probably be cheaper to buy some land and build a house ;).

[haddy1]

Another thing to consider is that when you go to sell it, no bank will finance an RV that doesn't have an RVIA sticker. A relative of mine did a beautiful bus conversion a few years back. The coach was actually featured in Motorhome (or possibly Trailer Life), but he had GREAT difficulty selling it. After a couple of years, he ended up trading it for a piece of property.

[Naio]

This sounds like a really cool project, but I agree with folks who say it may not give you the result you want.

What I've learned in a lifetime of projects is: You never use something the way you expect to use it, so build flexibly, and do a cheap trial run first.

For example, I thought I would use my homebuilt RV the way you describe -- boondocking in the wilds and sleeping in city industrial zones. Now, in my 4th month of living in it, I find I have done very little of both! I always loved remote camping when I did it with a friend or partner, but, by myself, I find that a little woodsy RV park, or a friend's driveway in the city, is more pleasant and practical, most of the time.

So my advice is, before you spend too many years and $$$, do something temporary and take it on the road. Rent an RV, or buy a cheap old trailer, or convert a van, and get out there. See what you really end up wanting.

Also, are you thinking of traveling solo? You don't mention a wife and 6 kids. Why would you want something so big, for one person?

[JKrussow]

Have you considered a used racecar hauler? Old NASCAR hauler? Most of the systems you need to add to a moving van would already be there.

[RRoger]

I have, and I even know an excellent bus mechanic that restores old buses to there original glory.

The downside to buses as I see it is they are a pain to work on and the folks that know how are few and far between.

A truck tractor on the other hand is readily repairable anywhere in the country both at 24 hour service centers and mobile mechanics. If you suffer a catastrophic failure of some sort labor to repair is much less and as an additional option you can rent a tractor or just buy another.

A trailer is a blank slate to convert, a bus has it's limits trying to put tanks in baggage bins and run the plumbing and electrical. Adding insulation is also trickier on a bus.

In order to have the option of a car along for the ride, with a bus this would require towing, with the trailer it will sit inside.

On a trailer things like brake lines and wiring is easy to diagnose with a bus not so easy.

There are lots of suitable tractors on the market but good buses are a lot trickier to find.

It is easier to install doors and windows in a trailer than it is to deal with removing the bus windows and then having to deal with the seals and gaskets.

With the big hole in the aft end, installing the appliances and cabinetry is a lot easier on a trailer than than trying to stuff it in through the door on a bus.

In the event of collision damage, all the panels on a semi trailer are flat and somewhat generic. For a bus the outer panels are unique and difficult to find replacements in good shape.

Thanks for your comments.

[Snowman9000]

Have you thought about a bus conversion?

http://www.technomadia.com/category/life-on-the-road/bus-projects/

[pianotuna]

Hi RRoger,

Do not assume that living in an RV even in boondocking mode is inexpensive.

100 gallons of fresh water is a little over 1 hour of "pump" time. That could be extended by using grey water to flush the toilet.

My RV is well set up for boondocking down to about 18 F. Much below that and it is far cheaper to be at a campground than to run the generator.

If it is hot weather--again a cheap campground is far more inexpensive than the generator. A months rental is about $800 in the "only game in town" during the winter months.

When I was part time, I enjoyed the challenge of living frugally. Now that I am full time it is not nearly so much fun.

I believe you are looking at this with rose colored glasses. From what you have posted, so far, it appears you don't have a lot of the technical skills needed to do a conversion from a bare bone box to an RV.

It is nice that you wish to think "out side the box", but there are reasons why even the largest RV's are not longer than 45 feet.

If you have a couple of million to spend, or even $500,000.00 you can DIY yourself anything you want. The electrical system alone is going to be about 20 grand, if you want it to be autonomous and grid independent.

Chassis repairs are rather rarely a topic here. When they are mentioned it is often "operator error" that causes them. That tells me they are infrequent.

While there are many rants about poor design, taking an RV and upgrading systems is going to be far more inexpensive than starting from scratch on a too large 48 foot box van.

My initial purchase price for a 28'5" used (less than one month of use) class C was $37,000.00. I have spent $19,000 on upgrades and improvements. It is finally four seasons capable (even though it was supposed to be from new). It is not economically autonomous from the grid in either summer or winter. I can probably get to that point for summer time, with an additional cost of $4000.00, but in winter time, solar just won't provide enough energy for me to survive off the grid. Running propane heat is prohibitively expensive. I need a source that can provide about 6000 watts peak if space heating is electric.

Even if I, by some "magic" managed to do inexpensive autonomous heating in the winter, I'd still need a way to dump and to take on fresh water. The only year round dump site I've found charges $20.00.

Please carefully rethink your idea of converting a 48 box to an RV.

[Golden_HVAC]

60 feet overall length with a 48' trailer? That would be a 12' long truck (well from front of trailer to the front bumper), while most have a longer wheelbase than 12'.

Anyway anything over 40' would prove difficult to park in a National Park. Heck I only found one open space for my buddy's 40' Country Coach in Sequoia NP in 2010. Most sites are not that large. Lucky for me, I arrived on Friday morning.

What about the trees with low hanging branches? I find I scrape with a 11'4" tall Bounder.

As for the compressors, if the freon lines are sized correctly, then the oil will return, even if going uphill, or a longer distance. With a 3/8" suction line, the freon gas will be moving about 800 feet per minute, and bring along any oil with the freon! So all the compressors can be mounted on the nose. I would also be recommending putting the generator on the nose too. Sometimes a TK unit will have a generator and 480 volt compressor in the nose mounted refrigerator unit. No reason you can not use the generator from a TK, just would need a step down transformer. It is compact, and runs on diesel. Red fuel is pretty low cost too!

I had always considered a larger solar system and 5 KW battery bank, I would not need a generator. You might find the same holds true. The only time I would run my generator is while running the A/C. If your truck will have a 100 amp 24 volt alternator for the starter motor, and 12 volt alternator for the lights and other systems, it will work well to run those two voltages in the RV as well. That is what my buddy does in his MCI. He can run one rooftop A/C with his 24 volt 2,500 watt sine wave inverter while driving down the road.

Many new MCI conversion busses do not have engine driven A/C anymore, just run the 20 KW generator and 5 or 6 rooftop A/C units! It is not uncommon to run 3 rooftop A/C units on a 43- 45 foot long DP.

Good luck!

Fred.

[RRoger]

PawPaw_n_Gram wrote:
You are willing to spend 3 to 5 years building this rig?


Perhaps I am an optimist but I have a friend with a fab shop on 5 acres in Montanna and between the two of us I think this project is doable in a whole lot less than two years.

You are willing to spend premium prices for all components, to end up paying extra?

I betcha I can get a better price buying 36 sheets of styrofoam than buying one or two at Home depot, If I buy 40 foot lengths of aluminum tubing to make the false floor I can get a better price also. I will not be buying roof top air conditioning units or a 3 way refrigerator. Check the price of a chest freezer or a microwave oven on Craigslist. While you are there perhaps look for a propane clothes dryer or a used front loading washing machine. keep your eyes open and you can probably find a propane tankless water heater and on e-bay you can probably find a water pump that just might do the trick.


You are willing to be locked out of many commercial RV parks, TT, NACO that your father loved? They won't allow homemade rigs in most of them.

I don't think he would have bought another membership that was worthless when he had enough of the road.

OK so if that is the way they want to set their rules then so be it. My rig will be about the same overall length as a big diesel pusher with a car on the dolly.

Many of the Escapees Co-ops have 40' rig limits, especially in the west.

The rig will be too long and heavy for real remote boondocking.

Hey if I have my Jeep in the back I can toss in some camping gear and go places your rig can't get to and run back and restock the ice box and take a shower and go back.

Building your own sounds like a lot of fun and a way to save money, but unless you can devote yourself full-time to the construction, it isn't.

That is kind of the plan. I sell my real estate, build the rig and go anywhere I am needed and live cheap and dollar cost average my way to retirement.

You can find used units for good prices you can convert - much easier, much faster and for a lot less money in the long run.

So true, but then that means that I would be getting towed somewhere to have a new torque converter installed, living with the compromises someone else chose to make and dealing with a temperamental RV.

Thanks for your comments.

[RRoger]

Golden_HVAC wrote:


I also think that a well planned out conversion of a fifth wheel would work, except for the part about putting a Jeep inside. Perhaps a "Smart Electric" car would work as well? They can be carried with most toyhaulers.

I was thinking about the Jeep because with a soft top and folding down the windshield it has a nice low profile. (Under 4 feet if I remember correctly.) Since my floor to ceiling in the van is about 10 feet that will allow a bedroom above the garage area.


If you want something custom, New Horizons will build just about anything. Yes they are expensive, but designed to last a really long time. Heavy! Yes. And you would want to tow it with something like a Freightliner or buy a used Volvo and remove the center axle, changing it to a housecar, and it will still have a 40,000+ towing capacity!

My thinking was a regular commercial style tractor. My reasoning for this is that these are very durable, and service is widely available all across the country. Used tractors are very reasonably priced and even if the unit has a half a million miles on it i would probably not wear it out in my lifetime.

Heck a 48 is the short van, they are also made in 53 foot lengths.

If the park won't let me in with the trailer I can just drop the trailer outside and bobtail the tractor or just go elseware. I can back one up easier than I can back up a 20 foot trailer behind a pick-up.


I can boondock for upwards of 3 weeks and have a 100 gallon fresh water tank, 42 grey and 59 black. I do sometimes water the local vegetation with the grey water, and bury the hole at night, so I do not attract flies.

My buddy that converted a MCI bus has a 100 gallon grey tank sitting above his 100 gallon black tank. In this way, he can dump some or all of the grey water, or dump the black, then use the grey water to rinse and dump through the black water tank. Also if dry camping for say 3 weeks, he can dump some of the grey into the black tank - to gain more grey water tank space. I think his fresh water is a stainless 150 gallon tank! He was considering removing the tag axle, and installing a pair of 150 gallon fuel tanks in that space. He only needs the two axles for his GVW. His bus has a 8V92 - that is 92 cubic inches per cylinder! and V8 two stroke diesel. It makes something like 500 HP but can be programmed for more HP if desired.


I was originally considering a bus conversion. The downside as I see it is that the car would have to be towed and bus mechanics are few and far between. The bus also has a difficult to work on engine as access is difficult. Configured as I imagine I should be 60 foot total length as I was thinking about a cab over engine tractor. If I can get a day cab it would be less.


Solar cells? I have a 400 watt system, and it makes 'plenty' of power for me. I don't have a all electric refrigerator. I have heard that the Samsung is a great brand while running from a inverter, as the compressor is most efficient. I would not have a auto ice maker, as I would rather make my own ice from fresh water, not the tank. Also the 300 watt electric heater that is on while harvesting the ice produces a lot of heat inside the freezer, and consumes a lot of energy overall!

You probably will need about 8 golf cart batteries for a all electric coach, not running gas refrigerator, and minimum of 800 watts of solar. You will need to decide between 24 and 12 volts battery system. The inverters work much more efficiently on 24 volts, or even 48 volts. My new home will include a 48 volt 8 KW Outback inverter to support life critical systems (oxygen generator, CPAP, ect). The 8 KW can run any normal appliances, including the ductless A/C you speak of. Normally ductless units are very energy efficient. However the drip pan is not all that deep, so driving, it might start to drip water, until it all reaches the drain line. If parked off-level, it might become a water drip problem, but otherwise will work fine off level. You might consider a axillary drip pan, or a 'cartridge ductless' design, or a ducted design with the same type ductless outside unit that is inverter controlled, and super energy efficient!

So if you plan on being all electric and mostly run on solar, consider a 200 amp hour 48 volt battery bank (8 X 6 volt batteries in series) to store about 9.6 KW of power. You would also need a pair of golf cart batteries for a 12 volt system too, to run the lights, water pump, and accessories.

A solar system for each bank of batteries would be required. If you run the inverter on 24 volts, you can pick only 4 batteries, (67 pounds each) and only 4.8 KW storage, or go with 8 batteries, and much longer battery life. Double the voltage, and for a given wattage, amperage is 1/2. To run a 800 watt load on a 12 volt inverter is 80 amps, 40 amps at 24 volts and only 20 amps at 48 volts. So much smaller wire size is practical with the higher battery voltage. I would see 150 amps going out of my batteries when running my microwave via my Trace 1500 watt 12 volt inverter. IT is a lot of power and required size 000 wire, about the diameter of my thumb.

I was kind of leaning in the direction of either 24 or 48V. On the refrigeration I was leaning to either use 2 chest freezers and augment the insulation and removing the condensers and compressors to eject the heat away from the box. Tecumseh looks like they make small hermetically sealed compressors in either 24 or 48 volts so I might end up with three of them, one for each box and one for the AC. I think I might have to put 2 of the compressors under the floor so the oil will return to the compressor but the one for the AC I think I can put in the nose of the trailer as the evap units would be higher.

Alternativly I am considering making my own boxes and just getting evaporator fan units like you would find in a vending machine or beer box.

I think that with good insulation and the opening at the top I should not draw too many watts, but my plan was to test the actual draw with
the rig under construction before I sized the solar and batteries.

The chest freezer as a refrigerator was not my original idea, I read about a guy doing this living off the grid and he had very good efficiency. I am also going to go with led lighting. I plan on a gen set but I really don't want to use it too much.

Thanks again for your comments.

[Golden_HVAC]

4X4Dodger wrote:
Have you looked in to some of the really cool expedition vehicles that are made specifically for overlanding? Go to Overland or Overlanding Magazine and take a look. These are quite common in Europe and will fit and are accepted at all campgrounds as far as I know.

Just another suggestion.

Then there was the guy who bought a used fire truck, sold the ladder section for more than he paid for the used truck, and then converted the basic chassis to a large motorhome. It also had a 8V92 engine, and heavy duty 3 axle design. I suppose he could have installed a rear garage over the back axles, and carried a Jeep if desired, and a smaller bedroom above the garage area.

A used 1970's era fire truck normally will only have around 80,000 original miles, as they normally do not see a lot of daily mileage, yet are built on a chassis designed with components that normally sees over the road use of 100,000 miles a year! Yet I wonder if this design would be prohibited from many RV parks, due to it's size and not looking like a typical camper. And the owners reported a 'tin can' problem when they are parked on a beach, or near a trailhead. People would walk by and start knocking on the walls, say "Yes it's real, and probably someone is inside!

Fred.

[4X4Dodger]

Have you looked in to some of the really cool expedition vehicles that are made specifically for overlanding? Go to Overland or Overlanding Magazine and take a look. These are quite common in Europe and will fit and are accepted at all campgrounds as far as I know.

Just another suggestion.

[coolmom42]

I think a 5th wheel toyhauler would be much better suited to your needs, for all the reasons listed above. You can modify and upgrade to your heart's content. As long as you maintain it, it will last a long time. Look for one that's 2-4 years old and well maintained. You will likely need to replace tires, add batteries, add solar if desired. But that will be much better than starting from scratch.

With a 5th wheel you can drop the trailer and drive the tow vehicle, you might not even want or need the toyhauler space.

Listen to Golden HVAC. He knows whereof he speaks.