Any innovative solutions for adding more batteries?

[smoline]

My 2014 CS Adventurous has the standard configuration of two 6-volt deep cycle batteries under the hood to supply the coach power, a 1250 watt inverter, and (optional) solar panels. We boondock a lot; almost exclusively. We'd very much like to add more battery power to our rig. Does anyone know a way or have a proven method to do this? I would even sacrifice the spaced used by the generator to replace it with a "battery box" of some kind.

Thanks,

Steve

[mrlandlord]

My Roadtrek wrote:
What ever the OP does make sure to get approval from Roadtrek, any unauthorized changes to the electrical system will void that part of the warranty.
Even an authorized dealer has to get authorization from the factory.

The confusing part about the David Becker posts is he never said that the factory authorized the alterations. He said it was OK because a Rt dealer did it. He also stated that the extended warranty he purchased would cover any problems the changes caused.
This is confusing, because extended warranties don't start until the manufactures warranty has expired.

JMO I seriously doubt that Roadtrek gave approval to the dealer to do the changes to the elec. system, I also doubt that there is an extended warranty that works the way Mr. Becker claims.

I wish he would come back to this forum and clear these things up.

Here is the thread that Mr. Becker posted here, only under user name mrlandlord
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27582597/srt/pd/pging/1/page/1.cfm

Hey, I just noticed this topic came up again. So, let clarify one point: The RV dealer did provide me with a warranty that will cover the install of the additional batteries. They did call Roadtrek and got approval. I did have to get them to add language into the warranty coverage to ensure that this was covered however. The extended warranty I got is for 8 years on everything. Now, people have said that I am a liar, but think what you want.

Now that is out of the way, lets talk batteries. My experience has been not so good mixing batteries. Where I am at is I am getting the OEM 4 AGM batteries to be removed and just have the 4 batteries that I bought. I am not convinced, nor have been, that the inverter is doing some "magic" to adjust the discharge rates so that they are all draining the batteries at an equal rate. So, I am going to remove this variable from the equation.

Regarding the location of the additional batteries, I have mine under the couch in the back.

Regarding losing the generator, I would not do this. I actually want to add a generator. I think Roadtrek missed the mark on this with the CS Adventurous. The notion that I have to turn the van on in order to charge the batteries is ridiculous. I like that the batteries charge on my way to the campsite, I do not like that I have to drive the van around once I am at the campsite just to keep them charged. I have read that you only need 30 minutes to charge the batteries. I have not had this experience. Maybe my generator is broken and it is only using the alternator. Going to get that checked out as well.

I am thinking of getting a 3000i Honda Generator and also getting a R-Pod trailer. The Honda Generator can then charge both once I get to the campsite with like 5 gallons of gas. I am also planning on taking the 4 AGM Roadtrek batteries and adding it to the R-Pod. Now, with that, I have the ultimate boondocking setup.

[Giselle]

smoline wrote:
My 2014 CS Adventurous has the standard configuration of two 6-volt deep cycle batteries under the hood to supply the coach power, a 1250 watt inverter, and (optional) solar panels. We boondock a lot; almost exclusively. We'd very much like to add more battery power to our rig. Does anyone know a way or have a proven method to do this? I would even sacrifice the spaced used by the generator to replace it with a "battery box" of some kind.

Thanks,

Steve

confused!!!!!i ues you already answers in your question itelsf for extra power ull need a generator my friend.

[gerrym51]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Gerrym,

I emailed them to ask as I was interested in that class of inverter, to ask the brand they were using. The answer was Wagman.

Thanks for the info on the alternator--do you know the make and model by any chance? Why do they rate it in watts? That is how I got the 'wrong idea' of it being a generator rather than an alternator.

gerrym51 wrote:
sorry pianotuna-

it's a high amp 1 wire alternator. just charges batteries

they use inverter/charger. i've never seen wagman though.

that i don't know as far as inverter charger they've used several since e-trek and it's packages have been ;aunched

[pianotuna]

Hi Gerrym,

I emailed them to ask as I was interested in that class of inverter, to ask the brand they were using. The answer was Wagman.

Thanks for the info on the alternator--do you know the make and model by any chance? Why do they rate it in watts? That is how I got the 'wrong idea' of it being a generator rather than an alternator.

gerrym51 wrote:
sorry pianotuna-

it's a high amp 1 wire alternator. just charges batteries

they use inverter/charger. i've never seen wagman though.

[smoline]

pianotuna wrote:

Propane generators have some nice attributes--but the easy of refilling is NOT one of them.

Actually AGM lifeline calls equalizing "conditioning". I agree it is not something one would wish to do on a regular basis with agm chemistry--but if there is significant loss of capacity it can (and should) be done.

The idea with battery banks is to use the largest possible cell size that will fit the available space. I'd LOVE to have six two volt cells, however I can't afford the modification nor the actual cells. There is no particular reason to use six volt format with AGM chemistry.

I could run the 400 watt coffee pot and the 800 watt toaster from a 1250 watt inverter--but one would take a peukert "hit", so it is probably better to run them sequentially rather than simultaneously.

Thanks for the information on the NiFe chemistry. I was not aware that they required regular watering. I did know that the electrolyte lasts for up to 30 years and then can be replaced.

How much charging can be done with the engine of your RV?

Will look into conditioning the AGM batteries. Having used mine to run the coffee pot (alone) several times and Peukerting my batteries down to zero (crashed every system in the coach), they could probably use any "assistance" I can provide them.

NiFe batteries are also extremely heavy as well as space hogs. The "battery" consists of a series of enough 1.2 V cells to provide the desired capacity. The more desired capacity, the more cells required. They are some great customer sample photos at www.ironedison.com, along with pricing. 300 Ah of NiFe capacity costs $3K.

I don't know how much charging can be done by the MB diesel engine in my Sprinter, but I have read that running that engine at prolonged idle may be harmful to it.

Cheers,

Steve

[smoline]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

Are the existing batteries "in line" with each other--i.e. narrowest dimension to narrowest? If so, probably the AGM would fit.

They're in line, but widest-to-widest.

[gerrym51]

sorry pianotuna-

it's a high amp 1 wire alternator. just charges batteries

they use inverter/charger. i've never seen wagman though.

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Propane generators have some nice attributes--but the easy of refilling is NOT one of them.

Actually AGM lifeline calls equalizing "conditioning". I agree it is not something one would wish to do on a regular basis with agm chemistry--but if there is significant loss of capacity it can (and should) be done.

The idea with battery banks is to use the largest possible cell size that will fit the available space. I'd LOVE to have six two volt cells, however I can't afford the modification nor the actual cells. There is no particular reason to use six volt format with AGM chemistry.

I could run the 400 watt coffee pot and the 800 watt toaster from a 1250 watt inverter--but one would take a peukert "hit", so it is probably better to run them sequentially rather than simultaneously.

Thanks for the information on the NiFe chemistry. I was not aware that they required regular watering. I did know that the electrolyte lasts for up to 30 years and then can be replaced.

How much charging can be done with the engine of your RV?

Hi MTS,

The batteries are not necessarily smaller with 24 volts--but they do work at 50% of the amp-hour draw for the same number of watts. That favors Peukert, of course. And of course as you mentioned 1/2 size cabling.

Hi Davydd,

If you have only 15 amps of shore power and wish to run the fridge, microwave and water heater all at the same time it becomes useful to draw from the battery bank. Particularly when it is -30 and there is no access to the shore power breaker box--which is often the situation I am in. I do use a watt meter and before I had the hybrid inverter I did load balance carefully. Now I don't have to do that any more. It was worth the extra cost to be able to do so.

I disagree totally about solar. For me as a former part time user it was the only way to extend the life of the battery bank. No shore power at any of the storage locations here. I was generator free for five years because I had a solar system.

Once the truly cold weather arrives it is far cheaper to go to a campground and use electric heat as opposed to running the generator and heating with propane. In the worst of the cold last year I was using 5400 watts and my class C was drifted in for four days. If I had been relying on propane I would have had a MAJOR problem refueling the fixed tank. I suppose I could have carried gasoline in a can for the generator. But it is only 2800 watts and while that may have prevented freeze ups it would certainly have been uncomfortable.

Hi Gerry,

I have read the Etrek page before. One of the more surprising things is their choice of a 5k Wagman inverter. Wagman is not very well thought of. Gotta love the 8 AGM batteries. 3500 watts equates to about 270 amps. But that is not a "pure" alternator, rather it is a 120 volt generator.

smoline wrote:

My current setup in addition to the 230 W solar array includes the two 6-volt AGM batteries that produce 190 Ah plus the Onan propane generator of 2.5 or 2.8 Kw (I forget which) and 1250 W inverter.

With that said, an increase to 400 Ah would be phenomenal; more than double what I currently have and certainly enough to run a coffee pot, toaster, CPAP machine, etc (albeit not all at the same time). However, conditioning or equalizing would not apply, as AGM batteries cannot (or should not) be equalized. I believe the wisest option would be to add more 6-volt AGM batteries to the current setup, or replace the current pair and start anew.

As with Lithium-Ion, I have also researched Edison (nickel iron, or NiFe) batteries not only for my RV, but also as a replacement for the battery bank which backs up the solar power for my home. NiFe batteries have many advantages, but (1) they are exorbitantly expensive and (2) they require watering, so need to be placed in a location convenient to adding electrolyte. As far as I know, they do not require equalization.

I greatly appreciate your level of detail, experience, and sage recommendations. Let's please keep this dialog going.

Steve

[John___Angela]

Pull the genny and put in 2 x 12 volt 8D AGM batteries. If the other batteries are not AGM's remove and replace them with AGM's so they are all the same chemistry. Sell the Onan to cover the costs. Screw the warranty, it's up pretty soon anyway. The rest of the rig wouldn't be affected anyway (as far as the warranty).

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Are the existing batteries "in line" with each other--i.e. narrowest dimension to narrowest? If so, probably the AGM would fit.

[smoline]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

I think I have found the battery of my dreams! 503 amp-hours at the 100 hour rate. 357 amp-hours at the 20 hour rate.

Flooded $1100.00

If AGM then 260 amp-hours @ 20 hours $683.00

Two of these would be quite magnificent.

Will one of those Surrette Rolls 12-volt 290 Ah batteries fit in the well currently occupied by the two 6-volt batteries under the hood of a CS Adventurous Sprinter?

[smoline]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi smoline,

With 230 watts of solar I would not increase the battery bank to more than 400 amp-hours, or I would do "bank switching". Two banks of 300 each would allow equalization on each using solar. Lifeline uses the word "conditioning" instead of equalizing.

For heavy inverter use 12 volt jars do have an "edge". I'd consider using two 8 D AGM's if you can find room for a rack to be welded under the Sprinter.

Best bang for the buck still remains flooded cell. Watering when mounted under the RV becomes an issue. There are watering kits available but they cost nearly as much as a battery. Since that is so, you are now in the "price range" of AGM.

If you have deep pockets consider the Edison battery because depth of discharge can be 80% on a regular basis. I don't know if they need equalization or not. There is a firm in Florida which makes them.

230 watts is going to harvest about 1 kwh per day (or 80 amp hours) in June. Parasitic loads will "dine" on about 30 amp-hours. That leaves 50 amp-hours for all other uses.

My coffee pot uses about 5 amp-hours per brew. The toaster about 9 amp hours. The microwave consumes 2 amp-hours per minute. The induction cooker about 1.5 amp-hours per minute of use. A breakfast of bacon, eggs, toast and coffee consumes about 30 amp-hours. So with a harvest of 50 amp-hours net, one can do one meal electrically per day

My guess is that with only 230 watts of solar you won't be able to use the inverter much at all without dipping into the battery reserves.

I chose to have an extra large battery bank (with bank switching) and when I was part time this worked well for trips up to a week. In the time between trips the solar would return the bank to full capacity. Now that I'm full time I have to run the generator, or find a plug in.

I don't attempt to fully recharge with the generator. I use it for opportunity charging when I'm running an electric heater to warm up the bedroom, or using the electrical appliances in the kitchen. I've used just 53 liters of propane since Feb, 2014. (filled up the last week of September). Almost all of that was for running the fridge.

Once it became too cool at night (5 c) I'd run the generator for a total of about one hour. It does have remote start (and stop) so that represents three 20 minute run times.

The solar system works well and has great low light capabilities--but I need to either add to it (say 1200 watts more), or start over and build for 1500 watts.

I'm considering putting solar panels on to replace the awning. There may be a width issue.

My house battery banks are getting old in the teeth--four of the batteries are nine years young, and three are now five years old. Because I'm in a class C, I chose to use marine batteries for all places--so my starter battery is also marine. I'll keep on using them until I have a failure. Because of the cold, LI is probably not an option for me, so I have to decide between trolling batteries or AGM.

I don't expect to replace the batteries again for the remainder of the time I wish to RV.

My big purchase this year was a hybrid inverter. BFL13 has found a 2000 watt hybrid that might suit you as an upgrade.

Don:

Thank you so very much for the details in this post. I look forward to discussing this in as much depth as you will allow.

My current setup in addition to the 230 W solar array includes the two 6-volt AGM batteries that produce 190 Ah plus the Onan propane generator of 2.5 or 2.8 Kw (I forget which) and 1250 W inverter.

With that said, an increase to 400 Ah would be phenomenal; more than double what I currently have and certainly enough to run a coffee pot, toaster, CPAP machine, etc (albeit not all at the same time). However, conditioning or equalizing would not apply, as AGM batteries cannot (or should not) be equalized. I believe the wisest option would be to add more 6-volt AGM batteries to the current setup, or replace the current pair and start anew.

As with Lithium-Ion, I have also researched Edison (nickel iron, or NiFe) batteries not only for my RV, but also as a replacement for the battery bank which backs up the solar power for my home. NiFe batteries have many advantages, but (1) they are exorbitantly expensive and (2) they require watering, so need to be placed in a location convenient to adding electrolyte. As far as I know, they do not require equalization.

I greatly appreciate your level of detail, experience, and sage recommendations. Let's please keep this dialog going.

Steve

[mlts22]

If I were a guess why RT is going with 24 volt is because the batteries can be smaller, and wire gauge is less of an issue compared to 12 volt systems. Plus, it isn't that hard to do DC-DC conversion to 12 volt for accessories.

[Davydd]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Davydd,

I think Alvars recharge numbers are pretty high, particularly the 300 amps per hour from the extra alternator. A V-10 would be a better choice than the Sprinter diesel engine for idle based recharging. I can, in a pinch, use the v-10 with the oem alternator (130 amps) to recharge at up to 70 amps (perhaps higher--but my meter doesn't read above that number). Someday I'll have to try it while idling. So far I have only used it while driving at highway speeds.

There is no choice in the engine if you want a Class B Sprinter. We are talking Sprinters and Class Bs here. 300 amp charge rate is in a Class B RV actual test. That you will have to ask ARV if you are curious. Keep in mind also the LFP batteries charge faster than lead-acid and don't go through a last 20% slow charge acceptance phase to top off.

I love solar recharging but again their numbers are pretty much "summer time only". The flexible panels seem to have "come of age" now with excellent output per square foot.

If you read the Advancing Alvar thread you will notice I have come to the conclusion that Solar is mostly just frosting on the cake based on my projected habits of driving a lot. Maybe if I park at Quartzite this winter for a week or two I'll appreciate it.

Espar heating is a magnificent idea. Do they plan to use it for space heating too?

The Espar hydronic diesel powered heater transfers heat into the B via a fan unit. The Espar heater switches to electrical when on shore power. There is also a heat exchanger for hot water. Glycol waste heat before it returns can also be channeled down a groove in the fresh water tank to keep that water from freezing in cold weather.

The outback inverter is one of the ones I was considering--but I wanted hybrid technology. I'm often where I only have 15 amps to play with, so being able to draw from shore power and the battery bank at the same time is useful to me.

They settled on the Outback and I can see no reason why I would have to draw on shore power and batteries at the same time.

Have they considered going to 24 volts DC?

Not to my knowledge. If you read that Technomadia blog and the Mar Azul blog I linked you will see the reasoning for the 12 volt LFP battery systems. From what I can tell ARV is very similar with those Elite Power System GBS LFP batteries those two blogs chose. I'm not sure why Roadtrek is hybridizing with 24 volt that eventually feeds out to 12 volt power. Probably cost and battery capacities of AGM I guess.

We live in exciting times for new technology and RV's. In 1990 a 5000 watt grid tied inverter was about $50,000.00.

It sure is going to be one nice Class B when they finish it off.

I hope so. 🙂

I have a few other things in my B under construction right now that are going to be of interest. Stay tuned.