In the market for used smaller RV

[Fish_mojo]

Comparing used RV's. Wife and I, want to keep smaller for drive-ability, storing at home, and economy. Probably 22-24 foot. Regular B's are just too small. Trying to compare B+ to smaller C's. I'm kind of leaning towards the Phoenix Cruiser, Chinook type rigs. Seem like better build quality and better drive-ability.

any info to share to comparing the two types of RV's? Any recommended brands and features i need?

[timdaley]

We had an opportunity to see a 2002 Concourse and I, more than the wife, fell in love with it except for the sofa bed (this was the club chair model). We were not able to lie on the sofa bed so I would like to hear from owners about how they deal with, like or dislike the sofa bed. We are mid 60s (me 6 ft 215, she 5'4" 120). Thanks in advance.

[Handbasket]

Alta, re adding rear air bags... I don't know how well this will translate to the E-450, but they sure improved the ride on my 2500HD Silverado-chassis'd Tiger (19' C). Loaded, it's near max GVW, and the thick heavy short rear leaf spring was pretty much always engaged. There was a distinct 'bang-thump' jolt as the rear hit expansion joints, let alone real bumps. I had an older AirLift compressor and dash controls, and bought the 5K# bag-only kit to fit my chassis. Just 20-25 psi of air smoothed out the ride a bunch. The jolt was replaced by a gentle bounce.

But first check your axle weights at a truck scale, and research needed tire pressures. Michelin has a good, easily pressure/load chart for E-range tires online. If you happen to be running 80 psi 'because it says so on the sidewall,' that's part of the issue.

Jim, "Mo' coffee!"

[ron_dittmer]

Good points pnichols!

[pnichols]

Alta Volunteer,

There's a couple things that can eliminate one's feeling that, in a motorhome, the V10 lacks power;

1) Drive it all the time in the transmission's Tow/Haul mode - it will feel like a different engine. This assumes you have the 2005 or later 5-speed (6 speeds internal) computer controlled transmission.

2) Don't be afraid to rev it. The V10 is a high RPM (relatively speaking) truck engine ... which is a rarity. To tap it's horsepower you have to get it going and it can run all day long at 4500+ RPM. We have run ours for long periods above 4000 RPM in Eastern Wyoming on high altitude highways and kept right up, or passed, the turbo diesel and V8 powered RVs that were thumping along. Most folks are used to good old chugging V8's or diesel truck engines, so rev'ing a truck engine makes one feel like they're going to ruin it. Not the V10 - it's high spirited and is built to be durable whether purring or screaming. And as a bonus - it can idle smooth and quiet as a kitten for hours to provide ultra low noise battery charging, A/C cooling, or heating in an emergency.

[ron_dittmer]

Alta Volunteer,

You bring up a number of valid points. I do feel that many of your issues exist because you have a "special ordered" model 2350 on an over-kill E450 chassis. That rig is normally built on an E350 chassis. Your house could be getting beat to death from a very harsh ride. I don't have much to offer in the way of recommendations except to try some of your ideas out and maybe install Koni-FSD shock absorbers to help with the rough ride. I do not think air bags will offer a softer ride, but removing a leaf or two per side could do wonders. I always wondered about Sulastic Shackles to soften the ride. A few people here like carringb have them and like the results. They are expensive but non-evasive, an easy installation too. If I had the money to toss around, I would get them to further reduce the feel of the road in back with my own rig.

A few things you can do immediately to reduce the rough ride.
- always travel with a full tank of fresh water to add weight to help dampen the roughness.
- set your tire pressure as specified on the driver door sticker that Phoenix USA stuck there. On my rig, I think it states 60psi in the front and 65psi in the rear. I tried 75psi all around and the ride was much rougher.

About your lack of power, you are the first person I ever heard that their E450-V10 lacks power, especially considering your rig weighs not much over 9000 pounds. READ THIS technical bulletin on the 2010 Ford E-Series chassis and make sure you do not have the air intake obstruction.

About the battery tray, I don't know what PC-USA is doing today but I think they have since implemented something similar to what I came up with years ago to resolve the problem. CLICK HERE to see it. It would nice if I replaced my stiff ground cables with easy-bending cables like my power cables are.

I agree about the mattress. It compresses too easily for my comfort too. I'd get their memory foam one if ordering a new unit today. I'd order one now but my wife likes the current mattress very much so I tolerate it well. We had the same situation with our dinette cushions. I got replacement cushions from PC-USA, leather-covered memory foam cushions, and oh what a difference for me. I can sit more than twice as long at the dinette now before needing to get up to stretch.

Our 2007 Tripp-Lite 2000 watt inverter seems to do the same with our batteries. When at home I disconnect the batteries completely, both the house and the chassis. It does seem that when one battery is weaker than the other, the charger tends to over-charge the good one in trying to recover the weaker one. I think that is why it is advised to replace batteries in pairs. Some people switch to two 6V batteries in series which I understand may eliminate that condition.

I also noticed that when one battery has gone bad and can't get fully charged, the acid boils out of both batteries because the charger keeps trying.

If you need any specific hardware or other parts for your PC, call the factory in Elkhart, IN. They will get you what you need fast, and at a lower price than most anywhere else.

BTW, the factory typically sells their rigs "at least" 20% off MSRP. Nobody would pay $120k for a 2350. More like $90,000, maybe a bit more pending demand at the time. The best negotiated pricing is had during their slowest time of year which is in October/November.

Good luck in smoothing out the ride on that over-stiff E450 suspension. I think if you can smooth out the ride, some of your other issues will settle down.

[Alta_Volunteer]

I have a 2010 Phoenix 2350 on an E450 chasis I bought used with 16,000 miles on it at less than half the original cost, and I am basically satisfied with it, but have had quite a few repair issues I didnt expect, and also learned along the way that some unanticipated modifications would be necessary.

The following is a list of repairs I've had to make to keep the unit in working order, and modifications I've made to improve performance and comfort:

1. It was under powered in my opinion and I spent almost $2,000 on a Banks exhaust, K&N intake, and SCT download, improving performance as much as is practical without diminishing reliability - probably improved it actually. But all stock Class C's with the Ford V10 will be the same in this respect.

2. While the solid (for the most part but not as much as claimed) cabinets look nice, the drawer construction is terrible, the drawer guides are flimsy, and the door and drawer catches are cheap plastic and routinely fail. I dont have experience with other brands so this may be consistent at this price range, but all my drawers have failed and Ive eliminated two of them out of frustration with the design. Also while the doors and drawer fronts are solid wood, the face frames and cabinet sides are cheaper material with ultra thin laminate simulating solid cabinets, but in reality pretty cheap stuff. This was an expensive option so they should have followed through with all quality materials.

3. The battery tray should be a battery box and the drawer guides it slides on have already failed. Im I'm the process of redesigning it so the batteries are properly supported and not exposed to the stuff rear tire slings up. This is a safety issue as the batteries could drop out in front of the rear wheel if the problem goes undetected.

4. The low profile Dometic "Penguin" AC (with horizontal compressor) failed twice. I finally replaced it with a standard unit at my expense. The warranty is one year from the time of purchase of the original, not the time of purchase of the replacement, so even though this was the third AC unit in just over two years, I had to pay for it. I installed a conventional 15,000 btu Dometic unit and used the heat strip and control module from the last one that failed so I would still have wall thermostat control and electric heat.

5. I couldnt sleep on cheap factory mattress - I weigh 230 and it was like sleeping on the OSB below. I replaced it with a custom made mattress from Mattress Insider. Wonderful improvement!

6. The battery charger over charges the batteries; when it should be in float, it is still providing 5.8 amps and cycles every 15 minutes or so with no demand on the batteries. It may be a charger flaw or installation flaw, but it boils the batteries in just a couple of days if left plugged into shore power. This is on my short list as I am in the third set of batteries in four years and they should last five or six years. Also some outlest are powered by the inverter, and some aren't - wierd but not crucial.

7. The power step has wiring exposed to the elements and I've had to repair it several times - Im going to do a permanent fix by re-routing and improving the wiring harness.

8. This is important: the TV mount failed while driving. It looked like it was made by a group of kids with scrap wood and simple tools. The TV fell in my lap while traveling at 65 mph in six lanes of traffic. I improved it, and I dont like to ridicule, but honestly, this was just plain lame, and a real safety hazard.

9. There is no filter for the water inlet - this is an easy modification but should be standard for this price range.

10. The sheet metal microwave front mounting plate is cracked in three places and I will have to buy or build a replacement. It would be easy enough to spec the thing from metal a few guages heavier.

11. Molding and mounts for smaller items are constantly failing - I carry a variety of hardware and tools to repair things and I have to do this on every trip.

12. The E450 chasis sounded good in theory, and the 4:56 gears help with pulling power, but it is too stiff for the weight. Im going to install air bags to try to improve the ride, and I might even take a couple leafs out of the 13 spring stack - need a little more research there.

Many of these things may be common to most Class C units - I dont know, so Im not blasting really Phoenix (for the most part) and I am satisfied to the extent that I have a lot of fun with the unit, and I like working on things. Also a lot of what I think is "cheap" is probably light weight for economy and load capacity. But this thing had a price tag of around $120,000 new, and at that price, most of the above items, in addition to a few smaller ones I didn't list, should have been resolved by better design, workmanship, and materials.

So hopefully this will give you an idea of what to look for when examining potential units. I like the size and manuverability of a 24' rig, and post engine mods, the thing has really decent performance. It has lovely cabinet doors, nice counters, HWH leveling, nice leather seating, nice appliances, Onan 4kw gennerator and xantrex 2kw inverter, etc. When looking at prospective rigs in the future, I am going to look deeper and better scrutinize the things you cant see on a walk through.

Also if you are looking at 2010 - 2012 units with original Michelin tires, check the date code for re-calls. Mine seemed fine but were re-called and I got six new tires at 37000 miles free of charge. The recall was due to tread failure which can do a lot of damage.

[Snowman9000]

The pleasure to drive part sure helps make for an enjoyable trip.

[rmasonschneider]

I would have to agree that the regular B's a are bit on the narrow side. The Chinook Concourse i have is 21 ft and I'm very happy with the build quality as well as the craftsmanship of the interior. It comes with the E350 which is plenty of power and some change to tow incase we need it. 21ft is not large by any means but it works for us. Me and DW have no trouble using the "wetbath" and prefer it over the campsite showers. Just like yourself after considering all the factors such as storage, drive ability, reliability, serviceability, our needs and value retention we ended up with this one. Oh and lastly, it's a pleasure to drive.

best of luck

[roamermatt]

+1, nice writeup Ron, thanks for taking the time.

[ron_dittmer]

Thanks for the compliments, both of you. It's nice to know that others actually read my very long winded post. I re-post it when this subject matter comes up. It's been around for a number of years now. I try to keep up with the clicky-links and data as things change over time.

I've debated if I should include the new Dodge Promaster chassis but it's Single Rear Wheel axle (SRW) limitation does not make it applicable for many of the rigs being compared.

[Cobra21]

Very excellent write up and informative Ron!

Thanks for sharing, Brian

[ron_dittmer]

Fish mojo wrote:
Great write up Ron. I think you nailed the issues and helped identified what I'm looking for. Your PC is beautiful, and just what we have in mind.

Finding one at a reasonable price (<$50k) may be another story.....

Be patient. They are out there <$50k, even out by you.

The sturdy rear wall system with spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment was introduced in 2004, the whole house 2000 watt inverter with twin batteries was introduced around 2006 as an option but made standard in 2007. The Sanicon waste management system was made standard around 2006. Nothing significant has changed with the house between 2007 and 2014 with exception to the size of the optional slide out. In 2010 they included the fridge in the slide out which opens up the interior much better.

[Fish_mojo]

Great write up Ron. I think you nailed the issues and helped identified what I'm looking for. Your PC is beautiful, and just what we have in mind.

Finding one at a reasonable price (<&50k) may be another story.....

[ron_dittmer]

Fish mojo,

I know your list, and I think you are on-track. Just keep this in mind.

Ron

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New, used, or well used, when shopping for any conventional class-C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and the punishment of road motion.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.75 to 2 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes have a limited selection of sizes.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans, many thousands of times, representing a series of extended continuous earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lower stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. Winnebago's View Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Phantom and the Minnie Winnie apply a compromising partial bucket design, making it a better choice over a fully seamed cab-over bed.

If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down the wall a few inches. The fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress. Some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but it offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing adjoining seam work.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also rare exception like the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of those three brands since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter is the least powered chassis. People who tow with a Sprinter, take it slower.

If considering a recent “small” class B+/C motor home, here is a comparison between the two main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years, and even more anticipated with the upcoming Ford T-Series chassis. The general public hopes it will become available for the RV industry. It is kind-of like a Sprinter in size and fuel economy, but hopeful to be much more affordable and easier to get serviced.

The Chevy 3500/4500 Chassis
I do not understand why this chassis is not more popular. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches to store your rig, the Chevy adds an additional 6" to the front bumper compared to the Ford. I learned that researching rigs that could fit in my 25'-0" deep garage. By default, the Ford gave me 6" more to work with. If you examine my motor home in my garage HERE, you will see our Ford E350 is quite tight already. That could be some of the reason why the Chevy offers a little more interior driver/passenger space.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, Sprinter, & Chevy
Ford - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft