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Inconsiderate engineering

Geocritter
Explorer
Explorer
If any of y’all heard any far off cursing and swearing a week ago it was probably from me and a friend removing the grey water tank from my Class A RV. It seems that in a classic case of “inconsiderate engineering” Holiday Rambler had apparently chosen to build the RV around the grey water tank. I finally had to remove the badly cracked grey water tank by cutting it into two sections. I’m now having a slightly smaller grey water tank fabricated that I can reinstall in one piece.

Stories such as mine are far from uncommon. I really get upset when it’s something that's a “wear” item that the engineers know for certain will need to eventually be replaced (out of warranty of course). Car engines that must be removed to replace spark plugs, how about those AC condenser’s that are so buried in the dash so that a simple replacement turns into a day long ordeal just to remove the old condenser. I once made the mistake, on a Goldwing website, of criticizing Honda’s use of interference fit valves on a touring bike engine. You’d think I’d criticized God or something, yet I still wonder why they’d build an engine that could suffer extensive damage and expensive repairs should a timing belt break. In my opinion, since it’s a touring bike engine where reliability and maintenance ease should be first and foremost, interference fit valves have no place on such an engine. But what do I know; I’m but a simple geologist.

Anyone care to post or vent about inconsiderate engineering they’ve run into over the years.

Steve
27 REPLIES 27

garry1p
Explorer
Explorer
What a surprise when I found out the fuel filter on my Chevy P/U is located inside the fuel tank!

I was told this is now common on many vehicles.
Garry1p


1990 Holiday Rambler Aluma Lite XL
454 on P-30 Chassis
1999 Jeep Cherokee sport

old_guy
Explorer
Explorer
they put those tanks in before they put any thing else on the or in the floor. I swear that if I ever have to replace another tank, I will trade the unit in and buy something new. it is easier than trying to replace a tank

Ivylog
Explorer III
Explorer III
Unlike all American cars, changing a water pump on a MB is a 45 minute job. Will have to look at what it would take to change a tank on this MH although I see no reason why unlike the OP.
This post is my opinion (free advice). It is not intended to influence anyone's judgment nor do I advocate anyone do what I propose.
Sold 04 Dynasty to our son after 14 great years.
Upgraded with a 08 HR Navigator 45’...

BigRabbitMan
Explorer
Explorer
It is stories like the above that make me keep lovin' my old coach. Fuel, black and grey tanks drop directly down and out. fresh water tank is inside under the couch and is removable. A small hatch was put in by the factory to be able to get to and remove the fuel pickup/sender assembly.
BigRabbitMan
Gas to Diesel Conversion project
76 FMC #1046, Gas Pusher became a Diesel Pusher
Discussion thread on this site
"You're never too old to learn something stupid."

turbojimmy
Explorer
Explorer
Geocritter wrote:
On mine the previous owner let it freeze and crack, the bottom of the tank was so full of congealed cooking grease (bacon?) that he’d dumped down the drain (what a guy!) that it effectively plugged the crack for quite a while until the grease patch gave out.


That sucks. Thankfully the tanks on my 30-year-old rig appear to be squeaky clean. When I cook bacon (or anything greasy) I usually do it outside. I've cooked bacon inside my RV once this season and it smelled for weeks. But...I dumped the excess grease into the campfire.

Glad you got it all sorted out. It's those victories that keep us going. And this is the place to get your just recognition and to vent about it at the same time!
1984 Allegro M-31 (Dead Metal)

Geocritter
Explorer
Explorer
I suppose what got me so upset about the grey water tank was that it appeared to be a simple matter of disconnecting it and pulling it out through the storage bay, but it was too long, even after taking the storage bay door and surrounding frame completely off. However, y’all are correct it’s not a wear item. On mine the previous owner let it freeze and crack, the bottom of the tank was so full of congealed cooking grease (bacon?) that he’d dumped down the drain (what a guy!) that it effectively plugged the crack for quite a while until the grease patch gave out.

Over the years I’ve owned two Mercedes, a 1979 and a 1998. I found both to be generally mechanic friendly when it came to wear items. In several instances you could actually see where the engineers had done things to simplify maintenance. Mercedes is probably the only high-end car I’d buy without hesitation.

Steve

turbojimmy
Explorer
Explorer
96bounder wrote:
The automotive industry is by far the worst, The starter on a Toyota v8 definitely a wear item,, you have to remove to intake manifold to replace starter, Ford Free style alternator repair requires removing tire, axle inner fender etc for removal. All manufactures are guilty of this but these to came to mind because I have done both this week.

The builders have no concern for the end user. Just get them out door as fast as possible.


GM's Northstar V8 is the same way - starter is under the intake manifold. And while I'm on the subject, GM wasn't able to manufacture a reliable torque converter control solenoid for decades. On RWD cars it was easy to change the $20 part. Drop the pan, pop the old one out and pop the new one in. On the Northstar-powered, FWD cars you had to drop the transmission out the bottom of the car. A $2,500 job for a $20 part that failed with frightening regularity. I did mine myself and it sucked more than any other automotive repair I've ever attempted.

I think it's more sinister than a lack of concern for the end user. They don't want DIYers messing with their repair revenue stream. BMWs are notorious for this. You can't do much of anything to the newer ones. There's not even dipsticks on them anymore.

But I digress...an RV is a different animal. I don't think manufacturers have any regard for units beyond about 10 years old. They're just not built to cater to owners of vehicles that old that would likely be doing their own repairs. That being said, I wouldn't consider black or grey tanks wear items. Mine appear to be pretty easy to get at. My biggest issue recently was with my fuel tank. That was definitely installed before the RV body. I had to cut a hole in the floor to replace the fuel lines. I can't get at the broken fuel sender because it is directly beneath a wall. I have not had any success in getting the tank out from the bottom. In addition to the straps, there must be something else holding it up.

Other than that, things seem to be pretty accessible both under the "hood" and with regard to the rest of the drivetrain. Though it is 30 years old....
1984 Allegro M-31 (Dead Metal)

Cloud_Dancer
Explorer II
Explorer II
Newmar is one of the better brands (whatever that means), but I've certainly had to fix a few blunders,........ don't get me started.
Of course, I really have little knowledge of how well they have improved since they built mine. I know the price has certainly escalated.
I'm going to keep up with how Country Coach comes along, now that it looks like they might go into production. I used to drool at how well their coaches were engineered, styled, and executed. Their Dynomax chassis, in particular, was most impressive to me. What a package!
Willie & Betty Sue
Miko & Sparky
2003 41 ft Dutch Star Diesel Pusher/Spartan
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2Bargos
Explorer
Explorer
The automotive industry is by far the worst, The starter on a Toyota v8 definitely a wear item,, you have to remove to intake manifold to replace starter, Ford Free style alternator repair requires removing tire, axle inner fender etc for removal. All manufactures are guilty of this but these to came to mind because I have done both this week.

The builders have no concern for the end user. Just get them out door as fast as possible.
2006 F-250
2008 Cherokee 28A+
2003 Harley Ultra
A wife that enjoys my hobbies as much as I do.
A Day Hemmed in prayer seldom comes unraveled

the_bear_II
Explorer
Explorer
With my two most recent RVs I have never had a problem with the Grey, Black or Fresh Water Tanks. My current RV is 20 years old and the one before it was 16 years old. I wouldn't consider the grey, black of fresh water tanks as a “wear” item. My expectation as well as most manufacturers is these are permanent fixtures to last the life of the RV. Hence the inconsiderate engineering.

That being said... If I had to replace the tanks on either of these RVs it would have been difficult without removing drivetrain and suspension parts.

OH48Lt
Explorer
Explorer
The OP mentioned the Gold Wing engine, try replacing the air filter on those GL1800's. Its a 4 hour job for a common maintenance item. 10 minutes on a Harley, similar on almost any other bike.
2017 Ford F-150 Crew Cab 4x4 3.5 EcoBoost
2014 Cruiser RV Fun Finder 215WKS
2015 Harley Road Glide Special in Amber Whiskey
2019 Mustang Bullitt
Yamaha Grizzly 660 (his)
Polaris Sportsman 500 H.O.(hers)

korbe
Explorer
Explorer
In the shows that I have seen on the construction of RV's, the tanks are installed from the top and flooring added after they are in place. Not the way we would need to replace them.
.

Jack_Diane_Free
Explorer
Explorer
Cars, trucks, trailers, motor homes, motorcycles etc. are designed for ease of assembly going down the line to keeps costs down. Not for ease of repairs. Had a leak in my black tank flush line. Told it would be $800 to remove the shower to fix. Nope. Now I just put 2 or three buckets of water down the toilet to ba-whoosh out the tanks. Works fine.

Could not imagine the problems I would have if the shower was removed and replaced.