New to RVing

[Old_Camper_1960]

Hello all, I'm very new to this. I will be retiring at years end and, looking for used class "C" 4 to 5 years old. Will be doing a lot of boondocking. Would appreciate any info on good quality/reliable motorhomes. Don't want to go much longer than 24 to 25 feet in length. Kitchen and bath are the most important features. Thank-you.

[sandblast]

pianotuna wrote:
ron.dittmer,

Great post!

X2

[AJR]

It all goes back to floorplan. My current rig has a lot of kitchen counter space that I love. It also has a walk in shower that I need now that I am older. Plus the bed is off set so one side gives me more room to get dressed.

Past that, I found the stock Chevy chassis handles better than a Ford on the road. I have had both. Live and learn. Both were on a class C measuring 30’.

[ron_dittmer]

PatJ wrote:
There is very little difference between the E450 and E350 after 2016 based on my research. They have identical engines, transmissions, cooling systems, transmission coolers, brakes, and axle ratios. My understanding is there are subtle differences in the frame thickness and rear axle width however this is more dependent on wheelbase and not E350 vs E450. There are also differences in rear spring pack rate and sway bar rate depending on wheelbase and final GVWR. Take this with a grain of salt as I can not confirm but this is my understanding after much research and discussion with Ford staff. You state you are looking for a rig in the 2014-2015 range and I am not as familiar with that era. I will say the 6 speed transmission (2016 and newer I believe) is amazing and worth considering.

I agree with Pat.

[Powertour]

We just bought ours in August & got what I consider to be a great deal.... private party to private party (no sales tax). After having purchased 2 brand new RVs at earlier points in my life I resigned myself to not do it again. I prefer to let someone else deal with factory gremlins/warranty & of course the depreciation is brutal.

Every platform has it's pros & cons, including the E350 & V10 units respectively. I don't find either the road manners of the 350 chassis or the noise of the V10 to be show-stoppers by any stretch.

I'm pretty happy with the Itasca/Winnebago build quality when I compare it to multiple other manufacturers' stuff I've owned over the years.

Durability is a huge factor for me. The V10 is a known good/reliable pkg & I like that.

Happy Camping!

[camperdave]

Congrats on retirement! I've got 4,061 days to go (but who's counting?).

[PatJ]

I will add my opinion:

We also do a lot of "boondocking," but there are different types of boondocking. We are weekenders. We have school-age children and 40 hr/wk M-F jobs. Our "boondocking" is generally 2-5 nights "dry camping" in ORV parks or "primitive" state parks, NF, etc. If the trip is longer than that (rare) we will break it up with a night or two at a premium resort type place in between. There are others on this forum that go weeks or longer without hookups in very isolated areas. Those people would choose a different rig than we would, and make different modifications. Something to keep in mind while reading replies.

This spring we purchased a brand new 23' class C (24'10" actual) with no slides and a corner bed. This is our third RV since 1996 so we knew what we wanted and this floor plan worked best for us. We have been shopping for many years and all the manufacturers made this same floor plan so it was all in the details and the price for us. The smaller, simpler no-slide floor plans also have more towing capacity which is good for us as we tow ~4000-5000 pounds of ATV's often. But everyone's situation is different.

There is very little difference between the E450 and E350 after 2016 based on my research. They have identical engines, transmissions, cooling systems, transmission coolers, brakes, and axle ratios. My understanding is there are subtle differences in the frame thickness and rear axle width however this is more dependent on wheelbase and not E350 vs E450. There are also differences in rear spring pack rate and sway bar rate depending on wheelbase and final GVWR. Take this with a grain of salt as I can not confirm but this is my understanding after much research and discussion with Ford staff. You state you are looking for a rig in the 2014-2015 range and I am not as familiar with that era. I will say the 6 speed transmission (2016 and newer I believe) is amazing and worth considering.

My personal opinion is to select a floor plan you like first, as all manufacturers make all the same floor plans. Floor plan is most important and cannot be changed later. By "floor plan" I'm including inside/outside storage, wheelbase/overhang/tow capacity, etc.

After you selected a floor plan you can look at the different manufacturers options and compare the details (storage, tank size, number of batteries, construction quality, price, etc.) Once you have narrowed to a floor plan they will probably all have the same chassis with same specs so don't sweat that stuff.

All just my opinion

[pianotuna]

AJR,

I think the 450 may be inherently better than the 350 as far as cross winds due to the much stiffer suspension. I may be totally out to lunch about this.

[AJR]

I spent well over $1000 to stabilize my E350 on the road due to wind and trucks passing and cut down on the engine noise due to down shifting on very moderate grades.

Pianotuna, I am happy you are happy with your modifications to your E450.

“Air Tabs”, must be very impressive.

[pianotuna]

AJR,

I added Air Tabs to my E-450. It improved cabin noise and big trucks ceased to be an issue.

[AJR]

No stock Ford E350 handles cross winds or big trucks going by like a stock Chevy 4500 chassis in my experience. Both were about 30’ overall.

Both rigs had all the water tanks over or just behind the rear axle. I am surprised some manufactures place the water tanks at the back of the camper. My two class Cs have had that room for storage (almost 100cuft). I doubt I have anywhere near what water weighs back there.

But I do dry camp with electric most times. I can go a week with or without electric. Depending on the weather.

[pianotuna]

ron.dittmer,

Great post!

[pianotuna]

Be aware that repairs on the Sprinter may be jaw dropping expensive. Mercedes has been known to void any warranty due to bad fuel, leaving the owner "on the hook" for many thousands of dollars.

Slides are nice, until they are not. Then they may be a nightmare.

Lazy Daze is about as good as it gets. BTW they do NOT make a slide version. http://www.lazydaze.com/

[ron_dittmer]

Old Camper 1960 wrote:
Hello all, I'm very new to this. I will be retiring at years end and, looking for used class "C" 4 to 5 years old. Will be doing a lot of boondocking. Would appreciate any info on good quality/reliable motorhomes. Don't want to go much longer than 24 to 25 feet in length. Kitchen and bath are the most important features. Thank-you.

Hi Old Camper 1960,

This is a very long "read" but I think you will find it of value.

A Side Note Here
My wife and I are in our early 60's. We most exclusively boondock to save money (RV parks are expensive), we love the convenience and ability to be spontaneous, and we highly value the wilderness experience at our destinations. Our rig, a 2007 Phoenix Cruiser 2350 works exceptionally well for us in our travel style. If you desire a large house with a roomy interior, then a Phoenix Cruiser might not appeal to you. But if you desire a rig that is easier to drive, park, and manage, then it would be worth checking Phoenix's offerings. They are nice rigs if you move around a lot like we do. We don't stay in one place for weeks at a time.

Ron Dittmer
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New, used, or well used, when shopping for a conventional class B+ or C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and also the punishment of the road.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with "Eye Candy" and "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.5 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are not common and have a limited selection of sizes and floor plans.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water damage. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans countless times, representing a endless series of earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lesser stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven making it common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. HERE is an example, one of many water-damage threads I have read. Scroll down in that thread to see pictures of the real damage.

The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design HERE eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with the most vulnerable seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. The Itasca Navion Here is a fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. Some manufacture models like the Minnie Winnie and the Nexus Phantom utilize a compromising partial bucket design, making it a better choice compared to a fully seamed cab-over bed.

If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass as shown HERE that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down to the wall. The overlapping of fiberglass to the wall provides a good water seal and the fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress as seen HERE. The rear wall resembles a shallow rectangular cooking pan standing on it's side. Like the example, some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but that rear wall/cap offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing the adjoining seam work. It helps in keeping the house together.

Don't be fooled. There are a select few manufactures who add rear wall sectional styling pieces over an entry level rear corner seam design which gives the appearance of a 5-sided pan design. You can easily tell by noting the sections & seams between them and the flat back wall that remains exposed.

Bigger Will Be Weaker
The size & floor plan you select MUST FIRST meet your needs before this consideration.
The bigger the house, the weaker the structure will be. Consider two cardboard boxes made from the exact same corrugated material. The smaller box would naturally be stronger. It will be more resistant to bending, twisting, and other types of flexing. So if you are on the fence between models, the smaller one will be your stronger choice.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also the rare exception of the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

A Caution Concerning Slide Outs
Slide outs are most popular. Everybody loves the extra floor space they provide. There are so few motor homes made without at least one slide out. Unfortunately slide outs can introduce risk of water damage to the main floor around them. Good seals work when the rig is young, but can loose their ability to seal as well with age. When looking at used rigs with slide outs, closely examine the main floor around each one. If you can lift the carpet adjacent to the slide out and see the wood floor is a gray color, that is a sign that water gets inside. Also, completely open the slide out and step on the main floor adjacent to the slide out. If it feels soft, the plywood or chip board material underneath likely requires replacing.

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E350 and E450 with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. Also within this past year is the recent introduction of the Ford Transit. The GM 3500 & 4500 chassis are not popular but are a very good choice for the right application. Any of the chassis mentioned made since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter & Transit will be least powered. People who tow with them naturally take it slower.

If considering a current-day “small” class B+ or C motor home, here is a comparison between the two current main chassis contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Mercedes Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35%-50% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $24,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions, you are low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford offers a great backup system. The V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Navion and View. A few manufactures like Phoenix USA offer their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E-Series. You can even special order a Phoenix Cruiser E-Series 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years on the Sprinter and most recently on the new Ford Transit.

The Ford Transit Chassis
This chassis has the potential to dominate the class B+ & C motor home market in the smaller sizes. According to Ford's website, the Transit DRW chassis is offered in the 156", and 178" wheel base, and is rated as high as 10,360 GVWR. Ford offers a motor home package specific for the RV industry. It's diesel engine compares to the Sprinter in power and fuel economy, but is more affordable and is easily serviced at Ford service centers, just like the E350 & E450. The cab has a much lower stance than the Sprinter making it much more friendly to get into and out from for people in their later years. It's more like a mini-van rather than a standard van. The Transit's lower cab also offers roomier over-head bunks that are easier to access.

The Dodge Promaster 3500 Cut-Away Chassis
This front wheel drive chassis is another recent entry in the RV industry. I am concerned over it's lack of load capability as reflected with single free-wheeling rear wheels. I have been reading posts written by new Promaster RV owners stating they are over-weight with just two people, some personal effects and food. They say they can't carry water and never a 3rd person. I would not be comfortable with such a limited load range in a B+ or C. This chassis does seem to be a good option in the "B" motor home market.

The Chevy 3500 & 4500 Chassis
Unfortunately this chassis is not more popular, primarily because GM sort-of gave up on competing with the Ford E350 & E450. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches in storing your rig, the Chevy is a little longer than the Ford by a number of inches which was critical for us with our garage as seen HERE with our Ford 2007 E350 rig. That could be the reason why the Chevy has a little more interior driver/passenger leg room.

The Ford E350 & E450
The majority of class B+ and C motor homes are built on one of these two chassis for a number of very good reasons. They have more power and load capability than the others. Ford approves outfitters to modify the chassis to increase or decrease the wheel base which supplies motor home companies a lot of design freedom. Ford has off-the-shelf components that work with the wheel base modification. So if you need a new drive shaft, fuel line, brake line, parking brake cable, wire harness, whatever, Ford has them available. Finally, the E350 and E450 chassis is competitively priced.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, MB-Sprinter, Chevy, and Dodge
Ford E350 & E450 - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Ford Transit Diesel - 3.2L-I5, 185hp, 350ft
Mercedes Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy 3500 & 4500 - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft
Dodge Promaster - 3.6L-V6 (GVW only 9,300 pounds)

Now to supply some data as to why I feel our Phoenix Cruiser stands above most other brands. These two videos drag on, but provide lots of data and also clarify critical things to look for when evaluating any brand.

CLICK HERE on a comparison between a Phoenix Cruiser and an unknown brand.

CLICK HERE for a slideshow on how a Phoenix Cruiser is built. I feel this slide show teaches so much, especially about hidden things to consider.

[garyhaupt]

Leaks..as mentioned are the killer to be super watchful of. It's not the water coming in, it's the rot that is the result of the water coming. Do a Google search on wood rot and it's health issues. Be aware too, that fixing an RV that has the wood rot is a huge HUGE expense. One you do not want. IF you are handy and can repair yourself? That is a whole different story.

One answer...maybe the answer, is to do your research on RV's that are built using aluminum framing. Don't get trapped buying an RV that is water damaged. Everything, anything, else can be managed. Not water damage/rot.


Gary Haupt