oil change

[jbrad13]

First oil change on my 2014 Ford Triton V-10 on F53 chassis. The manual says "SAE 5W-20 or equivalent". Should I go synthetic or conventional?

[427435]

RayChez wrote:
Usually when you put new rings you also change out the bearings, If not you will start losing oil pressure.

It's not a bad idea if you have to drop the crank or remove the rods to do rings. However, there are engines (both small and large) where the head and block are separate from the crankcase. Rings can be easily replaced on those engines without getting into the crankcase.

Check out the oil ring in the cylinder on the right (2 cylinder diesel):






I just replaced the rings and burnished the cylinders and it's been running fine for several years.

[jcthorne]

You guys do realize that in other parts of the world, not subject to US emissions laws and corporate average fuel economy, that same V-10 engine is specified to run on 5W-30 and 5W-40 oils.....

And as point of discussion, mine has run a very happy life (based on real oil analysis) running on Rotella T6, as do almost all of our engines.

[RayChez]

Usually when you put new rings you also change out the bearings, If not you will start losing oil pressure.

[427435]

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

Sully2 wrote:

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

Well there agene you are wrong Sully. Bearings wearer with use that is why you have to rebuild engines. When they reach a point where they no longer control oil flow they need to be replaced. In the case I posted earlier you would need to replace the main bearings if the oil gap was 0.002. Let me try to explain this a different way for you. If you have a gap of 0.001 and a gap of 0.006 which one would 50 weight oil flow through faster? Now if you were concerned about getting oil through the smaller 0.001 gap wouldn't it make sense to use a 20 wt. oil?
Bill

Engines ( internal combustion ones) get rebuilt because the RINGS are shot....not the bearings. If the oil has been doing its job...the gap isnt going to get larger than its initial wear-in dimenstion

I can tell you haven't ben around the garage much.
Bill

Maybe a garage that wants to tingle the till-----------but there are a lot of engines that only need rings. I've done that to several engines that ran for a long time after (and some are still running).

[427435]

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

427435 wrote:

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

427435 wrote:
I guess I have to go into more detail.

A typical journal bearing of a certain diameter, width and operating rpm well have a minimum allowable operating clearance (let's say that minimum CLEARANCE is .001 inch). Then let's say the minimum machining TOLERANCE for the bearing ID and for the shaft OD EACH is +/- .003 inch.

For a nominal 2" rotating shaft and bearing, the shaft will be spec'd something like 1.997" to 2.003". Thus the bearing will need to be spec'd to be from 2.004 to 2.010 to provide a minimum or .001 operating clearance with the smallest bearing going on the biggest shaft.

Now if tolerances can be reduced to +/- .0015 inch, the shaft can then be spec'd to 1.985 to 2.0015 and the bearing can be spec'd to 2.0025 to 2.0055. The minimum clearance is still .001" but the maximum clearance has been reduced from .013" to .007"----------which allows (but does not require) a thinner oil.

Both scenarios, however, require an oil "thin" enough to provide lube when things are at their tightest----------at cold start up.

At cold start up all oils are considerably thicker (by many times) than what they are at operating temps. Some typical viscosities (cSt)of Mobil 1 oils are:

Temp------5w-30------15w-50

-20----------6284--------21,852
0------------2129---------6462
25------------697---------1836
32------------531---------1348
50------------281----------657
100------------71----------138
150------------27-----------46
175------------18-----------30
200------------13-----------20
225------------10-----------15
250-------------7.6---------11.1


Please know that a 5w-20 oil will be very similar to the 5w-30 oil at cooler temps but drop to single digit viscosities at around 212 degrees F -------------which may be fine with a bearing and shaft machined to tight tolerances. This will also improve mpg during CAFE testing.

However, that close tolerance bearing was also be fine with viscosities of several hundred when the engine was starting and warming up-----------and even several thousand if you live in the North.


Bottom line, a 5w-30 oil (or even a 5w-40) will do no damage to your engine where a 5w-20 oil is recommended. It may reduce your MPG by a small percentage, however. It will also provide more lubrication strength under heavy load and at higher temps.

My V10 often runs with the engine temp between 200 and 212 degrees (scan gauge). As I want it to last a long time, I will sacrifice 0.1 or 0.2 mpg to be sure it does.

Mark, great bit of pontification about a fictitious engine. The dimensions that I posted are from Ford. Max main bearing oil clearance 0.0018 that is a long way from your 0.007 max oil clearance. To say that you can have an engine with a 0.013 oil gap is well…..By the way where did you come up with that?
I still recommend Mobil 1 0-20.
Bill

You are worrying about the trees and don't see the forest.

Yes, the numbers are fictitious-----but it is a fact that there is a minimum clearance for a bearing to run at. When manufacturing tolerances are figured, things are spec'd so the clearance never falls below the minimum and the max clearance is whatever the manufacturing tolerances give.

Today, tighter manufacturing tolerances result in smaller MAXIMUM bearing clearances but NOT SMALLER MINIMUM CLEARANCES.

While this allows the use of thinner oils, it does not preclude the use of heavier oils------------as long as the first number is low enough.

Nor is there anything wrong with a 0w-20 oil (especially in cold temps), but a 0w-30 oil is better for engine protection (and a 0w-40 still better).

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

This is the last time I will comment on this. Count the decimal places.

The rod bearings in your V10 Std Size Oil Clearance: 0.0011/0.0023 in. main bearing oil clearance 0.0001 - 0.0018. When you run a higher viscosity oil you don't get proper lubrication.
Bill

Look at the oil viscosity chart I provided (or do a Google and find your own). If the bearings don't seize when a 5w-20 oil is several hundred (or thousand) cSt during startup and warmup, why will it fail when the viscosity is 10-15 cSt with a 5w-30 or 5w-40 oil???

[Sully2]

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

I can tell you haven't ben around the garage much.
Bill

Just off and on for the last 50 years

[WILDEBILL308]

427435 wrote:

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

427435 wrote:
I guess I have to go into more detail.

A typical journal bearing of a certain diameter, width and operating rpm well have a minimum allowable operating clearance (let's say that minimum CLEARANCE is .001 inch). Then let's say the minimum machining TOLERANCE for the bearing ID and for the shaft OD EACH is +/- .003 inch.

For a nominal 2" rotating shaft and bearing, the shaft will be spec'd something like 1.997" to 2.003". Thus the bearing will need to be spec'd to be from 2.004 to 2.010 to provide a minimum or .001 operating clearance with the smallest bearing going on the biggest shaft.

Now if tolerances can be reduced to +/- .0015 inch, the shaft can then be spec'd to 1.985 to 2.0015 and the bearing can be spec'd to 2.0025 to 2.0055. The minimum clearance is still .001" but the maximum clearance has been reduced from .013" to .007"----------which allows (but does not require) a thinner oil.

Both scenarios, however, require an oil "thin" enough to provide lube when things are at their tightest----------at cold start up.

At cold start up all oils are considerably thicker (by many times) than what they are at operating temps. Some typical viscosities (cSt)of Mobil 1 oils are:

Temp------5w-30------15w-50

-20----------6284--------21,852
0------------2129---------6462
25------------697---------1836
32------------531---------1348
50------------281----------657
100------------71----------138
150------------27-----------46
175------------18-----------30
200------------13-----------20
225------------10-----------15
250-------------7.6---------11.1


Please know that a 5w-20 oil will be very similar to the 5w-30 oil at cooler temps but drop to single digit viscosities at around 212 degrees F -------------which may be fine with a bearing and shaft machined to tight tolerances. This will also improve mpg during CAFE testing.

However, that close tolerance bearing was also be fine with viscosities of several hundred when the engine was starting and warming up-----------and even several thousand if you live in the North.


Bottom line, a 5w-30 oil (or even a 5w-40) will do no damage to your engine where a 5w-20 oil is recommended. It may reduce your MPG by a small percentage, however. It will also provide more lubrication strength under heavy load and at higher temps.

My V10 often runs with the engine temp between 200 and 212 degrees (scan gauge). As I want it to last a long time, I will sacrifice 0.1 or 0.2 mpg to be sure it does.

Mark, great bit of pontification about a fictitious engine. The dimensions that I posted are from Ford. Max main bearing oil clearance 0.0018 that is a long way from your 0.007 max oil clearance. To say that you can have an engine with a 0.013 oil gap is well…..By the way where did you come up with that?
I still recommend Mobil 1 0-20.
Bill

You are worrying about the trees and don't see the forest.

Yes, the numbers are fictitious-----but it is a fact that there is a minimum clearance for a bearing to run at. When manufacturing tolerances are figured, things are spec'd so the clearance never falls below the minimum and the max clearance is whatever the manufacturing tolerances give.

Today, tighter manufacturing tolerances result in smaller MAXIMUM bearing clearances but NOT SMALLER MINIMUM CLEARANCES.

While this allows the use of thinner oils, it does not preclude the use of heavier oils------------as long as the first number is low enough.

Nor is there anything wrong with a 0w-20 oil (especially in cold temps), but a 0w-30 oil is better for engine protection (and a 0w-40 still better).

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

This is the last time I will comment on this. Count the decimal places.

The rod bearings in your V10 Std Size Oil Clearance: 0.0011/0.0023 in. main bearing oil clearance 0.0001 - 0.0018. When you run a higher viscosity oil you don't get proper lubrication.
Bill

[WILDEBILL308]

Sully2 wrote:

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

Well there agene you are wrong Sully. Bearings wearer with use that is why you have to rebuild engines. When they reach a point where they no longer control oil flow they need to be replaced. In the case I posted earlier you would need to replace the main bearings if the oil gap was 0.002. Let me try to explain this a different way for you. If you have a gap of 0.001 and a gap of 0.006 which one would 50 weight oil flow through faster? Now if you were concerned about getting oil through the smaller 0.001 gap wouldn't it make sense to use a 20 wt. oil?
Bill

Engines ( internal combustion ones) get rebuilt because the RINGS are shot....not the bearings. If the oil has been doing its job...the gap isnt going to get larger than its initial wear-in dimenstion

I can tell you haven't ben around the garage much.
Bill

[427435]

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

427435 wrote:
I guess I have to go into more detail.

A typical journal bearing of a certain diameter, width and operating rpm well have a minimum allowable operating clearance (let's say that minimum CLEARANCE is .001 inch). Then let's say the minimum machining TOLERANCE for the bearing ID and for the shaft OD EACH is +/- .003 inch.

For a nominal 2" rotating shaft and bearing, the shaft will be spec'd something like 1.997" to 2.003". Thus the bearing will need to be spec'd to be from 2.004 to 2.010 to provide a minimum or .001 operating clearance with the smallest bearing going on the biggest shaft.

Now if tolerances can be reduced to +/- .0015 inch, the shaft can then be spec'd to 1.985 to 2.0015 and the bearing can be spec'd to 2.0025 to 2.0055. The minimum clearance is still .001" but the maximum clearance has been reduced from .013" to .007"----------which allows (but does not require) a thinner oil.

Both scenarios, however, require an oil "thin" enough to provide lube when things are at their tightest----------at cold start up.

At cold start up all oils are considerably thicker (by many times) than what they are at operating temps. Some typical viscosities (cSt)of Mobil 1 oils are:

Temp------5w-30------15w-50

-20----------6284--------21,852
0------------2129---------6462
25------------697---------1836
32------------531---------1348
50------------281----------657
100------------71----------138
150------------27-----------46
175------------18-----------30
200------------13-----------20
225------------10-----------15
250-------------7.6---------11.1


Please know that a 5w-20 oil will be very similar to the 5w-30 oil at cooler temps but drop to single digit viscosities at around 212 degrees F -------------which may be fine with a bearing and shaft machined to tight tolerances. This will also improve mpg during CAFE testing.

However, that close tolerance bearing was also be fine with viscosities of several hundred when the engine was starting and warming up-----------and even several thousand if you live in the North.


Bottom line, a 5w-30 oil (or even a 5w-40) will do no damage to your engine where a 5w-20 oil is recommended. It may reduce your MPG by a small percentage, however. It will also provide more lubrication strength under heavy load and at higher temps.

My V10 often runs with the engine temp between 200 and 212 degrees (scan gauge). As I want it to last a long time, I will sacrifice 0.1 or 0.2 mpg to be sure it does.

Mark, great bit of pontification about a fictitious engine. The dimensions that I posted are from Ford. Max main bearing oil clearance 0.0018 that is a long way from your 0.007 max oil clearance. To say that you can have an engine with a 0.013 oil gap is well…..By the way where did you come up with that?
I still recommend Mobil 1 0-20.
Bill

You are worrying about the trees and don't see the forest.

Yes, the numbers are fictitious-----but it is a fact that there is a minimum clearance for a bearing to run at. When manufacturing tolerances are figured, things are spec'd so the clearance never falls below the minimum and the max clearance is whatever the manufacturing tolerances give.

Today, tighter manufacturing tolerances result in smaller MAXIMUM bearing clearances but NOT SMALLER MINIMUM CLEARANCES.

While this allows the use of thinner oils, it does not preclude the use of heavier oils------------as long as the first number is low enough.

Nor is there anything wrong with a 0w-20 oil (especially in cold temps), but a 0w-30 oil is better for engine protection (and a 0w-40 still better).

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

[WILDEBILL308]

427435 wrote:
I guess I have to go into more detail.

A typical journal bearing of a certain diameter, width and operating rpm well have a minimum allowable operating clearance (let's say that minimum CLEARANCE is .001 inch). Then let's say the minimum machining TOLERANCE for the bearing ID and for the shaft OD EACH is +/- .003 inch.

For a nominal 2" rotating shaft and bearing, the shaft will be spec'd something like 1.997" to 2.003". Thus the bearing will need to be spec'd to be from 2.004 to 2.010 to provide a minimum or .001 operating clearance with the smallest bearing going on the biggest shaft.

Now if tolerances can be reduced to +/- .0015 inch, the shaft can then be spec'd to 1.985 to 2.0015 and the bearing can be spec'd to 2.0025 to 2.0055. The minimum clearance is still .001" but the maximum clearance has been reduced from .013" to .007"----------which allows (but does not require) a thinner oil.

Both scenarios, however, require an oil "thin" enough to provide lube when things are at their tightest----------at cold start up.

At cold start up all oils are considerably thicker (by many times) than what they are at operating temps. Some typical viscosities (cSt)of Mobil 1 oils are:

Temp------5w-30------15w-50

-20----------6284--------21,852
0------------2129---------6462
25------------697---------1836
32------------531---------1348
50------------281----------657
100------------71----------138
150------------27-----------46
175------------18-----------30
200------------13-----------20
225------------10-----------15
250-------------7.6---------11.1


Please know that a 5w-20 oil will be very similar to the 5w-30 oil at cooler temps but drop to single digit viscosities at around 212 degrees F -------------which may be fine with a bearing and shaft machined to tight tolerances. This will also improve mpg during CAFE testing.

However, that close tolerance bearing was also be fine with viscosities of several hundred when the engine was starting and warming up-----------and even several thousand if you live in the North.


Bottom line, a 5w-30 oil (or even a 5w-40) will do no damage to your engine where a 5w-20 oil is recommended. It may reduce your MPG by a small percentage, however. It will also provide more lubrication strength under heavy load and at higher temps.

My V10 often runs with the engine temp between 200 and 212 degrees (scan gauge). As I want it to last a long time, I will sacrifice 0.1 or 0.2 mpg to be sure it does.

Mark, great bit of pontification about a fictitious engine. The dimensions that I posted are from Ford. Max main bearing oil clearance 0.0018 that is a long way from your 0.007 max oil clearance. To say that you can have an engine with a 0.013 oil gap is well…..By the way where did you come up with that?
I still recommend Mobil 1 0-20.
Bill

[Sully2]

WILDEBILL308 wrote:

Well there agene you are wrong Sully. Bearings wearer with use that is why you have to rebuild engines. When they reach a point where they no longer control oil flow they need to be replaced. In the case I posted earlier you would need to replace the main bearings if the oil gap was 0.002. Let me try to explain this a different way for you. If you have a gap of 0.001 and a gap of 0.006 which one would 50 weight oil flow through faster? Now if you were concerned about getting oil through the smaller 0.001 gap wouldn't it make sense to use a 20 wt. oil?
Bill

Engines ( internal combustion ones) get rebuilt because the RINGS are shot....not the bearings. If the oil has been doing its job...the gap isnt going to get larger than its initial wear-in dimenstion

[jbrad13]

Heisenberg wrote:
A new V-10, how could you go wrong with what Ford put in it? Wal Mart carries the Motorcraft 5w-20 synthetic blend and filter.

This is what I did!

[Rodz]

I've never seen so many wrong answers from so many. There are a couple that are correct. I'm just gunna sit back and let you figure it out. You guys argue over the craziest things.

[Effy]

Synthetic.