Opinion on Class C

[pauly_boy]

Hello
We are planning on getting into the R.V. world by way of a 24' C Class. As being a novice to this, I was wondering on your collective opinion on a couple of Vehicles.
#1 Thor, Four Winds, 22b. Bedroom push out
#2 Gulfstream, Conquest 6238. Dinette push out
Both Ford E350, V10, Approx 24'. Both equally loaded more or less and equal price. As fair as I can make out it's the flip of a coin as to which to pick.
So my final act is to get opinions from more experienced owner/travelers.
Thank you for your time.
Paul

[bobndot]

j-d wrote:
But Jayco might have better dealers and better factory support

😉 the jury might still be out on that . I would not place any weight on that to influence my decision over a useable floorplan and a good dealer to deal with.
Once the warranty is over you will be using any rv repair shop. The rv's appliances and such all have their own warranties, over the years of owning various makes and models I have been referred to call them directly during my coaches warranty period. I don't think it would matter if it was Jayco, FR or Thor.

Also re: full wall slides . In the case of a motor malfunction , it's a lot easier to manually push a smaller slide back in if you had to. Full wall slides are very heavy to push back in. Plus cutting such a large hole in an rv scares me . There has to limited structural support on that wall due to wall thickness, roof clearance and weight restrictions to not overload that side of the rv .

[j-d]

Wondered why I didn't see that one, then realized we'd started out talking FW and this one's a Chateau. We're moving up the food chain model wise.

On the chassis, it seems the Chevy is always a 4500 which is closer to E450 than the E350 offered in these RV sizes. As satisfied as I am with our Ford, the Chevy being a "45" series sets it clearly above the E350 alternative.

On Chateau, I like the "full wall slide" a lot. Also the way the Slide does NOT include things like Appliances and Plumbing. That concept makes me nervous. Wish it didn't use a shower curtain instead of a hard enclosure. But I can see that if it had a door, there'd be no getting in there. Our shower is a folding "door" and our bedroom "door" is also one of those. Since our A/C isn't ducted, we never close that. Rather, we block rear from front with the bathroom door or one of the closet doors. DW has to have a Pantry, and all the ones we're discussing have that. Split level floor might take the Thor units off the table though.
Another thing to consider is this: IF the Floor is high enough to provide decent outdoor compartments, the corresponding interior height means that people seated inside can't see out the windshield either underway or parked. We ruled out some Winnebago models because of that. The view forward in a 29B, was the edge of the cabover mattress.
All this means, we have to try to visualize how we'll travel, camp, eat, sleep, LIVE in the thing.

[bobndot]

Also view the Sunseeker 2350LE . Fiberglass front cap and roof.
Built on the Ford E450 super duty chassis at 14,500# GVWR. (Has a lot of storage and 4400#'s of payload)
Its a non slide unit with a U-shaped dinette table that spins and locks in place to offer more room while sitting as well as working in the kitchen. The corner bed is a real queen 60x80 on a Serta upgraded mattress.

I would also look at which water heater is offered. Be careful when choosing tankless models , the Girards don't appeal to me when boondocking. I prefer the old fashion Atwood gas/elec model.

[IAMICHABOD]

To expand on the previous posts there is also another option in the Thor Line that has all the attributes that j-d laid out including the option of a Chevy Chassis it is the 24F,it has the dinette slide out as well as the bedroom.


As mentioned before The Jayco Redhawk SE is also a great choice.

[lfcjasp]

Thor may be the worst of the worst, but even the best built rig will really disappoint you IF YOU DO NOT TAKE CARE OF IT AND RESPECT ITS LIMITATIONS! Sorry to "yell", but we've had our Four Winds five years and it's still going strong. We also have that dreaded corner bed. Yes, it's harder to make up and if you're short (I'm barely 5' tall) a challenge to get in and out of, but I manage quite well. And I cannot give up the larger kitchen/dinette space when the slide is out.

[ron_dittmer]

pnichols wrote:
Ron ... your usual excellent summary of things to be aware of when buying a Class C!

I notice that you periodically make changes to keep it current. Good work.

Yes I do periodically.

Thank you Phil.

[pauly_boy]

Well thank you all!. Quick response, all very knowledgeable and with my novice standing, treated as an equal! Much appreciated.
I will take this info into consideration in my efforts to purchase. Being brand new to this site it already feels very comfortable.
Thank you all!

Paul

[j-d]

Yep. Jayco Redhawk 22SE **Model 22C** . They also have the 22A. It's nice to have the living area slide, but that corner bed is a noxious deal killer for us. . Those beds are hard to make up, worse to get in and out of, especially for the one near the wall. For one person ...or two newlyweds... OK.
Here's Four Winds 22B
Both are available on E350 or 4500. Very similar floor plans. Both fiberglass front caps. I think both are TPO (rubber) roof. IMO, the CAP is a bigger problem source than the ROOF. In other words, I'd take FG front cap with TPO over made-up front cap and FG roof. BOTH is of course best.
As a unit, the Four Winds isn't the bottom of the Thor lineup, and many rental companies use them. I don't think I'd shy away from one only on the Thor name. But Jayco might have better dealers and better factory support.

EDIT: Four Winds has a split level interior. My DW wouldn't want that, insists on a flat floor throughout the whole "house" but what it can do, is offer more external storage space. All the engineering in the world won't make up for a floor plan that doesn't work for YOU. Likewise, limited or awkward STORAGE can be very frustrating.

[kerrlakeRoo]

If you are looking at new, consider the Jayco redhawk se
Similar floorplan to the Thor, Chevy chassis, Fiberglass front cap and many of the better construction features Ron mentions.
Also a 2 year warranty vs the one year from most others.

[pnichols]

Ron ... your usual excellent summary of things to be aware of when buying a Class C!

I notice that you periodically make changes to keep it current. Good work.

[ron_dittmer]

Hi pauly boy,

Here are some general class-C things to consider. It is a long read, but worth the investment of your time. It might help narrow your selection further.

Ron DIttmer

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New, used, or well used, when shopping for a conventional class B+ or C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and also the punishment of the road.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with "Eye Candy" and "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.5 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are not common and have a limited selection of sizes and floor plans.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water damage. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans countless times, representing a endless series of earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lesser stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven making it common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. HERE is an example, one of many water-damage threads I have read. Scroll down in that thread to see pictures of the real damage.

The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design HERE eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with the most vulnerable seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. The Itasca Navion Here is a fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. Some manufacture models like the Minnie Winnie and the Nexus Phantom utilize a compromising partial bucket design, making it a better choice compared to a fully seamed cab-over bed.

If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass as shown HERE that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down to the wall. The overlapping of fiberglass to the wall provides a good water seal and the fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress as seen HERE. The rear wall resembles a shallow rectangular cooking pan standing on it's side. Like the example, some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but that rear wall/cap offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing the adjoining seam work. It helps in keeping the house together.

Don't be fooled. There are a select few manufactures who add rear wall sectional styling pieces over an entry level rear corner seam design which gives the appearance of a 5-sided pan design. You can easily tell by noting the sections & seams between them and the flat back wall that remains exposed.

Bigger Will Be Weaker
The size & floor plan you select MUST FIRST meet your needs before this consideration.
The bigger the house, the weaker the structure will be. Consider two cardboard boxes made from the exact same corrugated material. The smaller box would naturally be stronger. It will be more resistant to bending, twisting, and other types of flexing. So if you are on the fence between models, the smaller one will be your stronger choice.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also the rare exception of the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E350 and E450 with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. Also within this past year is the recent introduction of the Ford Transit. The GM 3500 & 4500 chassis are not popular but are a very good choice for the right application. Any of the chassis mentioned made since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter & Transit will be least powered. People who tow with them naturally take it slower.

If considering a current-day “small” class B+ or C motor home, here is a comparison between the two current main chassis contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Mercedes Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35%-50% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions, you are low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford offers a great backup system. The V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Navion and View. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years on the Sprinter and most recently on the new Ford Transit.

The Ford Transit Chassis
This chassis has the potential to dominate the class B+ & C motor home market in the smaller sizes. According to Ford's website, the Transit DRW chassis is offered in the 156", and 178" wheel base, and is rated as high as 10,360 GVWR. Ford offers a motor home package specific for the RV industry. It's diesel engine compares to the Sprinter in power and fuel economy, but is more affordable and is easily serviced at Ford service centers, just like the E350 & E450. The cab has a much lower stance than the Sprinter making it much more friendly to get into and out from for people in their later years. It's more like a mini-van rather than a standard van. The Transit's lower cab also offers roomier over-head bunks that are easier to access.

The Dodge Promaster 3500 Cut-Away Chassis
This front wheel drive chassis is another recent entry in the RV industry. I am concerned over it's lack of load capability as reflected with single free-wheeling rear wheels. I have been reading posts written by new Promaster RV owners stating they are over-weight with just two people, some personal effects and food. They say they can't carry water and never a 3rd person. I would not be comfortable with such a limited load range in a B+ or C. This chassis does seem to be a good option in the "B" motor home market.

The Chevy 3500 & 4500 Chassis
Unfortunately this chassis is not more popular, primarily because GM sort-of gave up on competing with the Ford E350 & E450. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches in storing your rig, the Chevy is a little longer than the Ford by a number of inches which was critical for us with our garage as seen HERE with our Ford 2007 E350 rig. That could be the reason why the Chevy has a little more interior driver/passenger leg room.

The Ford E350 & E450
The majority of class B+ and C motor homes are built on one of these two chassis for a number of very good reasons. They have more power and load capability than the others. Ford approves outfitters to modify the chassis to increase or decrease the wheel base which supplies motor home companies a lot of design freedom. Ford has off-the-shelf components that work with the wheel base modification. So if you need a new drive shaft, fuel line, brake line, parking brake cable, wire harness, whatever, Ford has them available. Finally, the E350 and E450 chassis is competitively priced.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, MB-Sprinter, Chevy, and Dodge
Ford E350 & E450 - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Ford Transit Diesel - 3.2L-I5, 185hp, 350ft
Mercedes Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy 3500 & 4500 - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft
Dodge Promaster - 3.6L-V6 (GVW only 9,300 pounds)

[IAMICHABOD]

My choice would be the Thor Four Winds 22B,you can get it on a Chevy Chassis

Better handling,smoother ride,more room in the Cockpit area,less noise and all around better comfort for a RV.

It also has a Queen walk around bed,those corner beds are a real pain to make up and also to get in and out of,I would never have one.

[Isaac-1]

kerrlakeroo sums it up nicely. The only thing I would add is to buy used, something a few years old for your first RV, let someone else deal with all the initial quality control problems, and take that big depreciation hit. First time buyers tend to be in the car buying mindset, where the home buying mindset is much more appropriate. On average motorhomes only get about 6,000 miles of use per year, so it is very possible to find a well maintained coach that is 10+ years old for a quarter of the price of a new one, with almost all the benefits of buying new. The key here is well maintained, which may mean doing some shopping around, and paying more than the market average price.

[kerrlakeRoo]

In general, I believe you will find most folks believing that Thor Products are the lowest quality out there. This is for new units, a used one with all the bugs worked out shouldnt be much different than other brands.
Also when looking at the chassis. On smaller units (under 26' or so) many prefer the Chevy chassis for ride , handling, and comfort over the E-350.
The E-450 is a much different unit, and is generally sought when looking at the Fords.