Over Priced Used Motorhomes.

[fossile-finder]

Have been looking for a Used Class A motor home and have come to the conclusion that Nada and Kelly Blue book are misleading with pricing of used RV's. Most people selling a used RV look at these ratings to get an idea of what they should sell there RV for and go with the highest price figuring that they will come down to a lower price when the bartering begins.
When talking to an owner of a class A from 1999 to 2001 that are 14 years old and seeing the shape of these RV's, (faded siding, total rust underneath,rubber roof that have had no care, never leaked so why care for it, old tires but still work just fine, no brake work at all, worn interior, etc.etc.)with prices from $24,000 to $20,000 I feel that they are really fooling themselves if they think it will ever sell. Most Rv's have been for sale all summer and now into the fall and still have not sold.
I really can't blame the owners, they are only looking to see what other Rv's like there's are selling for and price accordingly. Even tho none of the others have ever sold.
Am I way off my rocker and lost too many marbles or do others see this too? I realize RV's are expensive period, but anything 14 years old is rusting and falling apart.
Would love to hear what you have to say.
Thanks.

[crcr]

rgatijnet1 wrote:

crcr wrote:

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Look on eBay for "completed" auctions. This will give you an idea of what coaches are actually selling for, NOT what people are asking for them. You will be surprised at how few are actually sold. Probably somewhere around 10% or less actually sell. Then compare the actual sales price and you will see that they are selling for below the low retail at NADA. Some of them are quite a bit below the low retail.

I also used to use Ebay "sold" auctions as a guide of value for items, but I learned that this is invalid as a measure, so I no longer use that method.

Here is why: I both sell and buy on ebay, have for many years. A couple months ago, I sold a used smartphone in an ebay auction for in the neighborhood of $250. The buyer was a deadbeat -- did not pay. Since I sell alot on ebay, I have it set up that after 4 days of no pay for an item, it automatically goes into a non-paying case in the Resolution Center. Then if the buyer has not paid after 4 more days, I as seller am issued by ebay, a refund of the fees they charged me when the item sold. I then re-listed the phone after the 8 day delay. The same exact thing happened, with a different deadbeat!! No pay, then my smartphone was tied up for another 8 days while I waited for the process to complete. Meanwhile, my item was off the market, and in the case of a smartphone, was depreciating.

So I started researching, and found that a LOT of used and unique items (this makes them easy to identify when re-listed by the same seller) that sold, were then re-listed, sometimes several times. So now I NEVER list an item on ebay as an auction, ONLY fixed price, and even then, I require "immediate payment", which means the deadbeats cannot tie up my item by bidding and not paying.

What I have found in my long years of selling experience is that auctions have the greatest amount of deadbeat bidders (as opposed to Buy it Now items), but both get them. Non-paying is rampant on ebay. Management doesn't seem to care, as there seems to be little penalty to the deadbeat buyers. I think one of the reasons they don't care, is that if you do not go thru the official ebay process I described, you will not recover your seller's fees. So if the seller just relists it after two or three days of non payment, then sells it again, he pays the sold fees twice! I can tell you that it's a major problem for sellers on ebay. Google it, and you will find discussions on forums of ebay sellers about the problem.

So bottom line, it is very dangerous to use sold ebay prices of items as a measure of value. You will end up with a lot of artificially inflated measures of value, since many of these items were never paid for, and thus are not real market numbers. There are often legitimate bidders who would have paid, but since they are bidding in good faith with real money behind their bids, when they are outbid by deadbeats, sometimes several of them, they stop bidding at a number that reflects their estimation of market value.

So you had a deadbeat buyer on a $250 phone. What does that have to do with the sale of motor homes? I have sold over $500,000 worth of Classic cars on eBay and every sale went through without a hitch.
I think the problem of non-paying bidders is more confined to low cost objects where the seller does not restrict his auctions to legitimate bidders. I restricted my bidders, as do many others selling high dollar items, to bidders with positive feedback and verifiable contact information.

I also restrict bidders as much as ebay allows a seller to do so. I have researched higher priced items as well as smartphones and other electronic items offered by many sellers, including items sold by sellers I know, and I have seen vehicles and RV's have deadbeat bidders also. It's nice that you have had good experiences, but not all have. The deadbeat bidder problem on ebay is NOT restricted to items under $500. I was merely providing a legitimate caution about using sold ebay prices as a guide to true market value.

Check here links from a simple search about 'deadbeat bidders on ebay motors', and you will see a problem exists, and not just on items of a few hundred dollars.

[Squealers]

Bottom line is you must do your research. We probably looked online at hundreds of rigs, and while on trips we visited such places as PPL and some of the larger dealers, as well as the mom and pops. Before I got a plane ticket I had 10+ conversations with the owner, pulled carfax, and felt confident that this was the one. Had it not been, we would have been ok flying back home, having that return ticket told the seller we were not stuck in Texas. I got 2 round trip tickets, and we canceled the return trip, once cementing the deal, thus getting a credit for the unused leg.

As far as the upside down discussion, this has its merits. However 2 of the local rigs I looked at were owned outright, yet still overpriced.

Repos are out there. We have a friend who owns a resell business and was willing to find a late model rig for us at auction if we were unable to find one on our own. We found a nice 2010 well priced repo'd Georgetown in Indiana which we considered, however I was concerned about having a 38 footer on the V10 platform.

Research, research and research more! Use all tools available, let everyone know you are looking, and by concentrating in the southern states, older rigs seem to fair better (with the exception of a rig we bought in Florida years ago, the sun and salt took its toll)

[rgatijnet1]

crcr wrote:

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Look on eBay for "completed" auctions. This will give you an idea of what coaches are actually selling for, NOT what people are asking for them. You will be surprised at how few are actually sold. Probably somewhere around 10% or less actually sell. Then compare the actual sales price and you will see that they are selling for below the low retail at NADA. Some of them are quite a bit below the low retail.

I also used to use Ebay "sold" auctions as a guide of value for items, but I learned that this is invalid as a measure, so I no longer use that method.

Here is why: I both sell and buy on ebay, have for many years. A couple months ago, I sold a used smartphone in an ebay auction for in the neighborhood of $250. The buyer was a deadbeat -- did not pay. Since I sell alot on ebay, I have it set up that after 4 days of no pay for an item, it automatically goes into a non-paying case in the Resolution Center. Then if the buyer has not paid after 4 more days, I as seller am issued by ebay, a refund of the fees they charged me when the item sold. I then re-listed the phone after the 8 day delay. The same exact thing happened, with a different deadbeat!! No pay, then my smartphone was tied up for another 8 days while I waited for the process to complete. Meanwhile, my item was off the market, and in the case of a smartphone, was depreciating.

So I started researching, and found that a LOT of used and unique items (this makes them easy to identify when re-listed by the same seller) that sold, were then re-listed, sometimes several times. So now I NEVER list an item on ebay as an auction, ONLY fixed price, and even then, I require "immediate payment", which means the deadbeats cannot tie up my item by bidding and not paying.

What I have found in my long years of selling experience is that auctions have the greatest amount of deadbeat bidders (as opposed to Buy it Now items), but both get them. Non-paying is rampant on ebay. Management doesn't seem to care, as there seems to be little penalty to the deadbeat buyers. I think one of the reasons they don't care, is that if you do not go thru the official ebay process I described, you will not recover your seller's fees. So if the seller just relists it after two or three days of non payment, then sells it again, he pays the sold fees twice! I can tell you that it's a major problem for sellers on ebay. Google it, and you will find discussions on forums of ebay sellers about the problem.

So bottom line, it is very dangerous to use sold ebay prices of items as a measure of value. You will end up with a lot of artificially inflated measures of value, since many of these items were never paid for, and thus are not real market numbers. There are often legitimate bidders who would have paid, but since they are bidding in good faith with real money behind their bids, when they are outbid by deadbeats, sometimes several of them, they stop bidding at a number that reflects their estimation of market value.

So you had a deadbeat buyer on a $250 phone. What does that have to do with the sale of motor homes? I have sold over $500,000 worth of Classic cars on eBay and every sale went through without a hitch.
I think the problem of non-paying bidders is more confined to low cost objects where the seller does not restrict his auctions to legitimate bidders. I restricted my bidders, as do many others selling high dollar items, to bidders with positive feedback and verifiable contact information.

[docj]

One thing that's pretty much been missing from this discussion is that not all older MH's were created equal. Our Beaver was a luxury coach with an MSRP in the ~$400k range. Fortunately, we didn't pay anywhere near that. It has a full-body paint job in an automotive-quality finish with multiple layers of clearcoat. There are no decals. When waxed and buffed it looks as good as new and people are astounded to learn that it is 14 years old.

Mechanically, we try to keep it in top-notch condition. It has a large-block 12 liter CAT engine designed to last >750k miles before first in-frame rebuild, coupled to a heavy duty Allison 4060 transmission. With 95,000 miles on them, they are just broken in. My maintenance schedule conforms to factory recommendations and I don't cut corners because my per year mileage is low.

As for the interior we have changed most of it, except for the solid wood cabinets for which Beaver was known. The typical RV furniture has been replaced by an Ekornes Stressless sofa and recliner, some of the most comfortable seating pieces in the world. Lighting, electronics, flooring, etc have all been updated. There's a residential fridge, a new washer/dryer and microwave, etc.

If you start with a quality item and employ high quality products when you update it, there is no reason that an older MH can't have a fairly high selling price. The drive train alone on a rig like ours is worth $20-30k just as a used engine and transmission.

[crcr]

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Look on eBay for "completed" auctions. This will give you an idea of what coaches are actually selling for, NOT what people are asking for them. You will be surprised at how few are actually sold. Probably somewhere around 10% or less actually sell. Then compare the actual sales price and you will see that they are selling for below the low retail at NADA. Some of them are quite a bit below the low retail.

I also used to use Ebay "sold" auctions as a guide of value for items, but I learned that this is invalid as a measure, so I no longer use that method.

Here is why: I both sell and buy on ebay, have for many years. A couple months ago, I sold a used smartphone in an ebay auction for in the neighborhood of $250. The buyer was a deadbeat -- did not pay. Since I sell alot on ebay, I have it set up that after 4 days of no pay for an item, it automatically goes into a non-paying case in the Resolution Center. Then if the buyer has not paid after 4 more days, I as seller am issued by ebay, a refund of the fees they charged me when the item sold. I then re-listed the phone after the 8 day delay. The same exact thing happened, with a different deadbeat!! No pay, then my smartphone was tied up for another 8 days while I waited for the process to complete. Meanwhile, my item was off the market, and in the case of a smartphone, was depreciating.

So I started researching, and found that a LOT of used and unique items (this makes them easy to identify when re-listed by the same seller) that sold, were then re-listed, sometimes several times. So now I NEVER list an item on ebay as an auction, ONLY fixed price, and even then, I require "immediate payment", which means the deadbeats cannot tie up my item by bidding and not paying.

What I have found in my long years of selling experience is that auctions have the greatest amount of deadbeat bidders (as opposed to Buy it Now items), but both get them. Non-paying is rampant on ebay. Management doesn't seem to care, as there seems to be little penalty to the deadbeat buyers. I think one of the reasons they don't care, is that if you do not go thru the official ebay process I described, you will not recover your seller's fees. So if the seller just relists it after two or three days of non payment, then sells it again, he pays the sold fees twice! I can tell you that it's a major problem for sellers on ebay. Google it, and you will find discussions on forums of ebay sellers about the problem.

So bottom line, it is very dangerous to use sold ebay prices of items as a measure of value. You will end up with a lot of artificially inflated measures of value, since many of these items were never paid for, and thus are not real market numbers. There are often legitimate bidders who would have paid, but since they are bidding in good faith with real money behind their bids, when they are outbid by deadbeats, sometimes several of them, they stop bidding at a number that reflects their estimation of market value.

[Gjac]

mike brez wrote:
After looking at dozens of motorhomes over the course of a couple of years there's is a ton of junk out there. You can go broke flying out from here to there looking at coaches. Thanks to the members on this site and irv2 that happened to be or live in the area of some of the coaches I was interisted in and took a quick look at them for me and gave their opinions. When I saw the coach that I did purchase I didn't mind spending a few grand more for it just because of the condition it was in. As long as your happy with the purchase who cares.

This is the same conclusion that I have come to. What I want to buy has to be better than what I have now. Defining better to you I think is important. Better performance,handling,storage,CCC etc. If you can list what is important to you, then be prepared to spent a few more thousand dollars when you find most of them in one MH.

[mike_brez]

jaguarjoy wrote:
Hello to all.
I'm a first time poster here.
I joined to get into a like minded group.
Presently looking for a used dp and kinda relieved to hear the comments. I thought I was the only one thinking sellers are trying to recoup their new sale price.
I live in Las Vegas which has tons of rvs owner/ dealers. My budget is low but I know I'll be hitting the roads asap.
My plan is full time all the way, splitting my year half in western Canada and the balance in western US.
A question about used mh. How are older units received in most rv parks? Let's say the obvious 80`s style Allegros or Fleetwoods. Are they welcomed the same or is there a class distinction like neighborhoods? Really curious about that.
Looking forward to hear anyone's response.
Joy

Welcome to the forum. Lots of good info here. You should have no problem finding a nice used unit in or around the area were you live.

[mike_brez]

After looking at dozens of motorhomes over the course of a couple of years there's is a ton of junk out there. You can go broke flying out from here to there looking at coaches. Thanks to the members on this site and irv2 that happened to be or live in the area of some of the coaches I was interisted in and took a quick look at them for me and gave their opinions. When I saw the coach that I did purchase I didn't mind spending a few grand more for it just because of the condition it was in. As long as your happy with the purchase who cares.

[fossile-finder]

Too answer some questions, we have been looking for and Entry Level MH 30 to 32 ft. Coachman Miranda or similiar. With 1 slide and levelers. Most of the units I have looked at are in the 30,000 to 50,000 mile range. Would like something with under 35,000 and really don't want to spend more than $25,000. Will have to take a look at some Texas sites.

[rgatijnet1]

fossile-finder wrote:
Thank you all for the excellent advice! I have not thought about shopping in the southern states even tho we do go down to Gulf Shores Ala. and Florida. Guess I was thinking of the convenience here.
Yes I do live in the Rust Belt and it is a problem.
As for getting a trailer, I would have to get a tow vehicle and since I am still working need a good 4x4 gas car (Subaru).
We have gone from a tent to a pop-up to a 20ft.travel trailer to a Class C MH. Now after years of not camping, would like to get back into it with a class A MH pulling our Saturn Vue.
Will keep looking.
I think that most RV owners around here are going to see that they can't sell there MH at the price there asking and will eventually lower to a more reasonable price.

The last coach that I bought was down here in Florida from an owner that lived in Maryland. He bought a new coach at LazyDays and did not like the trade-in value they offered him. He decided to sell his coach on his own. After SIX months he could not find anyone willing to pay his price. I happened to be looking for his rather unique coach and made a cash offer. His wife turned it down and he was on the fence about it. I left. A week later he called me back and we closed the deal. To get out from under the second coach and the second loan, he had to write a check for $9000 over and above the price I paid, just to satisfy his loan. In the long run, it was the best and only decision that he could make. Total sales price at the time was about 20% below the low retail NADA price for a very low mileage coach in like new condition. Eventually the prices will come down, if not from the owner, then from the bank that repos it.

[John_Joey]

fossile-finder wrote:
...snip...I think that most RV owners around here are going to see that they can't sell there MH at the price there asking and will eventually lower to a more reasonable price.

I kinda doubt it. The rigs that are upside down will go back to the banks, then auction. The others I'm guessing are owned by people that can afford them, and it's worth more to them to keep the rig then to sell it for an insulting price. Most of the really good rigs are owned outright by people that don't need the money.

The great deals you hear about on these forums are usually the ones that are on the dealers turd lot that they took in on trade-in. I'll never forget looking at a few in a Texas auction lot when a guy asked me my opinion on one. He just flew in to buy it since it was such a great price, way below Nada. The whole area below a window on a slideout was delam. He wanted to know if I thought that was bad, cause you know it was selling at a low low price and hard to pass on, and maybe a few screws could make it look nice again.

If an owner bought a nice rig, kept great care of it, and now is worth only $25K or less, they aren't going to let some newbie talk them into a 10K cut in price. Heck for $15K I'ld let a rig rot into the ground then sell it for that low of a price or give it away to a family member.

You may think these rigs are overprice which is your right, but don't expect owners that don't need the money that took great care of their rigs to let them go to a newbie that really don't know what they are getting in return for their dollar.

Like I said before if you can buy a rig for $20K, tour the US and live out of it for three years, it's worth every penny. Now if all you're going to do is six weekends of camping and let the rig sit in the driveway, well then $20K is a lot of money to a family on a budget.

[okgc]

NCWriter wrote:

rockhillmanor wrote:
What everyone is overlooking is MANY of the older RV's for sale were bought new before the crash and many owners till owe a lot of money on them..

Exactly what I was thinking. They may no longer use it, can still afford the monthly payment, so it sits. But maybe owner can't afford a lump sum to pay off a big note remaining after selling for whatever lower amount they'll get for it.

How true.. I know of a 2000 Fleetwood that probably has seen less than 1000 miles the last 10 years after 30k early miles. They owe much more than it is worth, SO it just moves between winter and summer storage spots.

[fossile-finder]

Thank you all for the excellent advice! I have not thought about shopping in the southern states even tho we do go down to Gulf Shores Ala. and Florida. Guess I was thinking of the convenience here.
Yes I do live in the Rust Belt and it is a problem.
As for getting a trailer, I would have to get a tow vehicle and since I am still working need a good 4x4 gas car (Subaru).
We have gone from a tent to a pop-up to a 20ft.travel trailer to a Class C MH. Now after years of not camping, would like to get back into it with a class A MH pulling our Saturn Vue.
Will keep looking.
I think that most RV owners around here are going to see that they can't sell there MH at the price there asking and will eventually lower to a more reasonable price.

[NCWriter]

rockhillmanor wrote:
What everyone is overlooking is MANY of the older RV's for sale were bought new before the crash and many owners till owe a lot of money on them..

Exactly what I was thinking. They may no longer use it, can still afford the monthly payment, so it sits. But maybe owner can't afford a lump sum to pay off a big note remaining after selling for whatever lower amount they'll get for it.

[jaguarjoy]

Hello to all.
I'm a first time poster here.
I joined to get into a like minded group.
Presently looking for a used dp and kinda relieved to hear the comments. I thought I was the only one thinking sellers are trying to recoup their new sale price.
I live in Las Vegas which has tons of rvs owner/ dealers. My budget is low but I know I'll be hitting the roads asap.
My plan is full time all the way, splitting my year half in western Canada and the balance in western US.
A question about used mh. How are older units received in most rv parks? Let's say the obvious 80`s style Allegros or Fleetwoods. Are they welcomed the same or is there a class distinction like neighborhoods? Really curious about that.
Looking forward to hear anyone's response.
Joy