Question to Class B manufacturers

[Argie7]

I am a satisfied owner of a 2006 Roadtrek 210 V on a Chevy chassis. A very fine piece of equipment that has performed well on my many trips. The quality of craftmanship and design tells me that the manufacturer looked into many features that make RV living a pleasurable experience. As my vehicle is reaching 10 years of service, I am starting to look at the current versions of class B, and have been a bit disappointed at the lack of "updates" made.This is what I mean:
Throughout the years, I have enjoyed "personalizing" my RT with modifications that best suited my traveling style. I like to work on my rig ! There is a huge amount of info on this and other forums on how to improve your rig with aftermarket products. My disappointment is that the manufacturers seem oblivious to the improved devices in the market and rely on the same old supplies. For example
- Tank level sensors that measure from the outside have been there for a while, and are reliable. Why they keep installing the worthless ones in the new rigs.
- Battery meters that measure battery consumption and calculate remaining capacity rather accurately (e.g. Trimetric, Xantrex) should be standard. Why use the dumb voltage meter with color lights?
- Silent water pumps with variable speed and accumulators should be standard by now, not an after market improvement
- Voltage and polarity monitors when hooking up to shore power at campgrounds are recommended. Why not incorporate them into the control panel ?

Those are just a few things. I am sure people can come up with more stuff like that. My peeve is that the improvements are largely made in appearance and color design, but very little thought seems to be put into updated proven technologies developed by after market suppliers. These are rather expensive rigs, and should have state of the art infrastructure in them

[colmsted44]

I just re-upped after a multi-year hiatus and its nice to hear from long-time acquaintances (Asheguy, Davydd, LJZ, My Roadtrek). Is Handbasket still with us?

[My_Roadtrek]

Lynne, so nice to hear from you. I can put up with Davydd if it helps bring out the old crew. :B

[Lynne_Jayzee]

avanti wrote:
Davydd,
But, honestly, is it really necessary for you to beat your ARV drum so incessantly while simultaneously taking subtle jabs at every other product on the market? When you owned your GWV, you praised it to the skies (the net doesn't forget--your old narrative is easily found)...Respectfully, you might want to consider turning it down a notch.

Some things never change.

- LJZ

[Fastpaddler]

I am not qualified to evaluate the ARV against any other B Sprinter. I think it is a question of economics. The Advanced RVs are clearly specialized, individualized, high tech and very expensive Sprinters. The GWV has always been the best of the general, affordable, Sprinters and, I include the Pleasureway Plateau TS which is very similar to the GWV Legend in quality and interior comforts/facilities but--in my opinion--is a better unit mainly because it has the screens integrated--which Pleasureway now has, and has the tri-fold sofa, which Pleasureway now has too(?) They all cost way too much--that is the problem really now.
AL

[Fastpaddler]

mlts22 wrote:
Don't mean to hijack, but there are a few things about "B"s which make them an exception to the RV industry:

The one thing about class "B"s is that they are definitely 1-2 tiers above what you might find in other RV types. You don't see push-button positive latches in truck campers, or class "A"s. Because it takes a lot of custom work to upfit a van into a usable unit, not to mention the hundreds of compromises that have to be made, "B"s are not cheap.

But you get what you pay for. I don't read about a five year old Roadtrek being towed to the junkyard because cabover rot completely trashed the rig, nor do I read about having to go on the roof and do various types of patching jobs with paint-on goop, Eternabond, butyl tape, caulk, elastomer epoxy spray, or all the above at once. In fact, I rarely read about class "B" leaks, and if so, it usually is a faulty window... nod a dud roof.

Then there is the resale value. A 2006 T1N Sprinter Roadtrek goes for $48995 at PPL. This is a unit that is one model year from being booted from every RV park in central Texas due to the 10 year rule... but has lost about 20% of its value in over 10 years. I don't know many RVs that have this little deprecation after a decade.

Now here is the ironic part: What I've been seeing with class "B"s is more innovation than any other RV segment:

In the past five years, travel trailers have sprouted more televisions, maybe even jumped to LED lighting. Similar with class "C"s. Neither of these are really earth-shaking developments. I replaced my trailer's light bulbs with LEDs for a buck a piece from a no-name ebay supplier.

Same five years, here is what I've seen go on with class "B"s:

• A move to fully electric awnings with a LED light strip.
• SMEV/Dometic flush stove and sink.
• The replacing of the water heater and furnace with a combined unit that does both their function for less space.
• 800 ampere-hour battery packs.
• Hydronic heating.
• Curved overhead panels to maximize space.
• The movement from just the Chevrolet Express and the Sprinter chassis (with a few Ford E-350s here and there like the PW Excel) to having a reasonably priced Euro-style van... the ProMaster, a midrange van, the Ford Transit, and a van with all the safety features of any other luxury car on the road (the Sprinter.)
• Multiple floor plans, be it the traditional sofa bed, twin beds, or European style half dinettes with various sleeping setups in the back.
  
• The tiny little absorption fridge replaced by a compressor fridge storing more in the same volume... or taller absorption fridges that store 5-7 cubic feet of goods
  
• The movement to very sleek windows.
  
• Advances in insulation that are not seen on other RV types.
  
• Solar either standard or an option on virtually any new "B". Most RV models, this isn't available, unless one gets it installed by the dealer.

So, even though "B"s may not have some of the gewgaws, they are the fastest advancing sector of the RV market.

Yes and we are not talking about cut-away units but the B Springer intact. They hold their value and do not deteriorate very much, if at all. Good summation.
AL

[avanti]

Davydd,
We all get that you are deeply in love with you new van and with Mike Neundorfer. And, as far as i know, no one on this list has ever suggested that ARV does less than excellent work. But, honestly, is it really necessary for you to beat your ARV drum so incessantly while simultaneously taking subtle jabs at every other product on the market? When you owned your GWV, you praised it to the skies (the net doesn't forget--your old narrative is easily found). In one post, you praise ARV because they take ideas from their customers. In the next post, you imply that GWV doesn't deserve credit for their innovations because Neundorfer was their customer at the time.

As a careful Google search will reveal, the spinoff of ARV from GWV is not as simple as you suggest. And, in any event, to suggest that ARV's starting point was anything but a straight clone of GWV's long-standing design is ridiculous. They copied the floorpan; they copied the screen door; they copied the rear screen; they copied the Espar system; they copied the totally-unique trifold sofa/bed, and more. I am not judging their actions one way or the other. I am just saying that it is a fact.

Another fact is that I looked very carefully at ARV before deciding to purchase our new GWV Legend. I was tempted, and I could have afforded one. In the end though, I decided that, wonderful though ARVs work was, the Legend was, for us, a far better value. Along virtually all the dimensions that we cared about, the Legend was the equal of the ARV as it existed when we were shopping. The extra features were mostly things that we simply didn't value, or considered a negative (the excessive use of automation at the expense of direct control being the biggest example). You made a different choice, but that doesn't mean that ours was irrational.

I am a big fan of ARV, and I wouldn't be surprised if we owned one some day. But it isn't the only rational choice on the market, as almost all of your posts imply. Respectfully, you might want to consider turning it down a notch.

[Davydd]

Yes, I have had both the Great West Van Legend and the Advanced RV. I think I know well the differences. The Great West Van is a good Van. The screen door and tri-fold sofa were the innovations of the previous owner. The Espar diesel-fired heat and hot water didn't exist until Mike Neundorfer brought it to GWVan for his own personal RV. It then quickly became a standard. As I remember AGM batteries were first installed on Neundorfer's RV as it came almost right after mine. That was done all under the original ownership. GWVan was then and apparently still is a very small producers of Bs. I learned, though it was a dealer game, you had to lock in changes and improvements at the direct factory level. It wasn't easy for the average buyer. Advanced RV came about from that difficult experience. Neundorfer felt there had to be a better way. To say he just copied is not entirely correct. He and I evidently both agreed the plan created by the original ownership was the best on the market. I haven't seen much improvement from GWVan since and from what I saw last week at Advanced Fest was a mind boggling, jealous thoughts of why didn't I think of that, oh, I bought too soon of new things coming from them. Advanced is Neundorfer's passion. The name is apt.

[Fastpaddler]

avanti wrote:

If you want a rig with the latest and greatest, you will need to go to a place like Sportsmobile or Advanced RV and have one custom built.

You should also take a look at Great West Vans. They have consistently been an industry leader in innovative technologies--often derived from special-requests from their customers. Some examples include: First screen door in a Sprinter; first clearspan trifold slide-forward sofa bed; first use of Espar diesel-fired heat/hot-water. ARV took all of these features as well as the basic floorpan as the basis of their design--adding their own technology innovations and upscale finishes.

On our 2014 GWV Legend, we had them add a number of features such as those that OP mentions, including a freshwater accumulator, compressor refrigerator, and an Outback inverter/charger (note that high-end inverters incorporate power monitoring features--there is no need for add-ons). Great West is very willing to customize according to your ideas, and often incorporates them as they evolve their designs.

On the subject of Great West Vans, and Davydd had one, I always liked them but they pulled the plug on my home town of Winnipeg, Manitoba ostensibly because their water lines kept freszing but possibly because the new US location is a superior tax location. So--we Canadians, battered by US dollar value against our dollar are the losers. And, the Canadian RV manufacturers will increase prices here as the components often come from the US which means higher prices for the fabricators. It is a lose/lose situation for us here. Outside of the Advance RV units I still like the GWVans in that kind of configuration although my wife wants, as I noted before, an LTV Unity TB.

[avanti]

mlts22 wrote:
The one thing I wish to see in a class "B" would either be a pull-out desk or a permanent table with a bench seat. European models almost always have that. Here in the US, the only ones I've seen with that are Davydd's ARV, the Interstate Grand Tour, and the Winnebago Travato.

I added this homemade one to our GWV Legend:

[mlts22]

The one thing I wish to see in a class "B" would either be a pull-out desk or a permanent table with a bench seat. European models almost always have that. Here in the US, the only ones I've seen with that are Davydd's ARV, the Interstate Grand Tour, and the Winnebago Travato.

[Davydd]

Most of the stuff mentioned in this thread has been implemented or is in development right now by Advanced RV. But like BoBoJay said, "$$$".

[mlts22]

I do agree that a "C" is cheaper. One can get a 24 foot "C" with a decent fridge, stove, microwave, generator, and other items in the low to mid $50k range.

The problem is that the Sprinter is the only game in town for a lot of things, such as length (only 24 foot chassis.) It also wasn't that long ago when it was the only Euro-van on US shores, so all the "B" makers who were moving from the Chevy Express went to that.

Things will change. The Transit is in high demand, and due to fleet purchases, RV upfitters are behind them, so it might be a year or two before we start seeing Transit upfits, other than Sportsmobiles. European motorhome makers are well used to the ProMaster/Ducato line, so we will start seeing more coming that way. We might even see a 24 foot Transit with 4WD, who knows.

I would look at Sportsmobile as sort of the baseline of what a "B" costs. Winnebago is under their upfit price, while most other places are above it. Sportsmobile isn't cheap, but they are not excessive either.

[Fastpaddler]

mlts22 wrote:
Don't mean to hijack, but there are a few things about "B"s which make them an exception to the RV industry:

The one thing about class "B"s is that they are definitely 1-2 tiers above what you might find in other RV types. You don't see push-button positive latches in truck campers, or class "A"s. Because it takes a lot of custom work to upfit a van into a usable unit, not to mention the hundreds of compromises that have to be made, "B"s are not cheap.

But you get what you pay for. I don't read about a five year old Roadtrek being towed to the junkyard because cabover rot completely trashed the rig, nor do I read about having to go on the roof and do various types of patching jobs with paint-on goop, Eternabond, butyl tape, caulk, elastomer epoxy spray, or all the above at once. In fact, I rarely read about class "B" leaks, and if so, it usually is a faulty window... nod a dud roof.

Then there is the resale value. A 2006 T1N Sprinter Roadtrek goes for $48995 at PPL. This is a unit that is one model year from being booted from every RV park in central Texas due to the 10 year rule... but has lost about 20% of its value in over 10 years. I don't know many RVs that have this little deprecation after a decade.

Now here is the ironic part: What I've been seeing with class "B"s is more innovation than any other RV segment:

In the past five years, travel trailers have sprouted more televisions, maybe even jumped to LED lighting. Similar with class "C"s. Neither of these are really earth-shaking developments. I replaced my trailer's light bulbs with LEDs for a buck a piece from a no-name ebay supplier.

Same five years, here is what I've seen go on with class "B"s:

• A move to fully electric awnings with a LED light strip.
• SMEV/Dometic flush stove and sink.
• The replacing of the water heater and furnace with a combined unit that does both their function for less space.
• 800 ampere-hour battery packs.
• Hydronic heating.
• Curved overhead panels to maximize space.
• The movement from just the Chevrolet Express and the Sprinter chassis (with a few Ford E-350s here and there like the PW Excel) to having a reasonably priced Euro-style van... the ProMaster, a midrange van, the Ford Transit, and a van with all the safety features of any other luxury car on the road (the Sprinter.)
• Multiple floor plans, be it the traditional sofa bed, twin beds, or European style half dinettes with various sleeping setups in the back.
  
• The tiny little absorption fridge replaced by a compressor fridge storing more in the same volume... or taller absorption fridges that store 5-7 cubic feet of goods
  
• The movement to very sleek windows.
  
• Advances in insulation that are not seen on other RV types.
  
• Solar either standard or an option on virtually any new "B". Most RV models, this isn't available, unless one gets it installed by the dealer.

So, even though "B"s may not have some of the gewgaws, they are the fastest advancing sector of the RV market.

Good points but for one problem: all these goodies when incorporated into a B model results in about 130 to 140 or more thousands of dollars, well, US prices may be lower but in US currency, still pricey. There are C models and especially A models with those goodies so while I agree that B Sprinters have potentially more to offer, if you pay the bucks, they are not exclusive to having these options either. I think the problem is the basic MB Sprinter is very pricey to start with. If you price any/amy B or small C model with good equipment you find the price is a lot lower, ie if you get the Ford chassis instead of MB chassis.

[Fastpaddler]

loving retirement wrote:
I believe that many new B's are purchased by first time B owners. I personally know many B owners that have purchased a second B, but many of them had become very discriminating and shrewd buyers for an RV and look for and purchase a slightly used vehicle, possibly from an older couple that no longer drive at a great discount over the going price of the same new super duper model with the new appearance and color design that appeals to the first time buyer.

I am looking at an LTV Unity TB but my current 2007 Pleasure-way Plateau TS is NOT that different from a 2015 model which does have a bigger fridge and now, a screen door, but that is about all--well, an extra battery and is $126,000 or more. Something wrong with all this!