Studying the B+ market

[pgustaf249]

We are studying the B+ market for our first RV. We are nowhere close to making a purchase, but right now we're leaning toward the Monaco Montclair (25') and the Winnebago View/ViewProfile models. A decision we will eventually have to make is whether we want gasoline or diesel. We don't what questions to ask ourselves, or what points to consider, before we decide which way to go. So we would appreciate assistance from those of you who have already been through this stage and request that you help us with those questions we need to answer before selecting gas or diesel. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

[wbwood]

First question I would ask is how are you going to use it? Are you going to use it a lot or just occasionally? How much stuff do you plan on taking with you? How much room do you need? Do you plan to spend much time at a campground with it or do you plan to arrive, go to sleep and head out first thing in the morning? I would first be asking myself those type of questions.

For instance, if you plan to enjoy the campgrounds a good but, then you will want something with some room. If you plan to be out and about mostly, then all you will care mostly about is a bed and bathroom. The class b market is a wide range. Form nothing more than a camper van, to nearly the size and look of a class c. Many have convertible beds while others have dedicated bedrooms. Same goes for bathroom. You can have a wet bath or a full bathroom. And kitchens can vary as well.

[gradygal]

We have had 3 Phoenix Cruisers--2010 2350 on the Sprinter chassis, 2011 Model 2511 on the Ford and now a 2013 Model 2910ase. We have had a great experience with Phoenix USA. The 2350 was our 2nd RV--first was an Airstream Interstate (class B).

We like the fact that their customer service is top notch. When we have a question and have to call the factory, the owner calls us back with the answer!! Where else would that happen?

Initially, I was concerned about buying factory direct for such a large purchase.

Take a good look at them.

[rvten]

Cube68; have your tools handy.
We owned 2 FW MH's in the past. You could not give me one as a free bee.

Hope you have good luck with it. Maybe there quality has improved.

[oregon2]

Also worth noting - at least on the LTV Unity Sprinter - no water temp gauge, no trans temp gauge, and no oil pressure gauge --- so what is that all about ??

[Cube58]

Hi All. Been out Looking at class B+ & came across a Brand New One (2013)

It is a Fleetwood Tioga Ranger DSL 24L. I like the fact that it is a Sprinter Diesel.

These appear to have been discontinued by Fleetwood for 2014 (no big Deal to me) But I was wondering about the Quality of the workmanship of Fleetwood? anybody have any comments.


This model seems to have most of what I want & the price is not too bad. There is just me & my Small dog and I will be full timing it for about 6 months of the year.

[Quick_trip]

Snowman9000: All PC's come with a fiberglass roof?

[pgustaf249]

So considering the list of RVs I listed above are there any that tend to spend a lot of time in the shop? Or is that a function of maintenance rather than make?

[Snowman9000]

Regarding renting, typically you don't see B+'s rented, only C's.

[pgustaf249]

ron.dittmer wrote:

Snowman9000 wrote:
Construction: hopefully Ron Dittmer will stop by and post his message on that. I personally am not bothered by a rubber roof, but some are. I do want a molded cap over the cab though, for sure.

When shopping for any conventional class-C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. What methods are built to last, and what methods are built to be most affordable.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" and/or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water penetration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets in, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Mold can also form and then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a Reliably Well Sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.75 to 2 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, door, roof-top vents and a/c unit, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are limited in size.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans, many thousands of times. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lower stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. Winnebago's View Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Phantom applies a partial bucket concept. If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, that extra bed would be extremely important.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after the caulk has dried out from age & sun, as well as fatigue from the change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down the wall a few inches. The fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A 5 Sided Rear Wall Cap
This 5 sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also rare exception like the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of those three brands since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter is the least powered chassis. People who tow with a Sprinter, take it slower.

If considering a recent “small” class B+/C motor home, here is a comparison between the two main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years, and even more anticipated with the upcoming Ford T-Series chassis. The general public hopes it will become available for the RV industry. It is kind-of like a Sprinter in size and fuel economy, but hopeful to be much more affordable.

The Chevy GMC 3500/4500 Chassis
I do not understand why this chassis is not more popular. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches to store your rig, the Chevy/GMC adds an additional 9" to the front bumper compared to the Ford. I learned that researching rigs that could fit in my 25'-0" deep garage. By default, the Ford gave me 9 more inches to work with. If you examine my motor home in my garage HERE, you will see an extra 9 inches in length might have been detrimental.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, Sprinter, & GMC/Chevy
Ford - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Srinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
GMC/Chevy - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft

Thanks Ron. That is a very valuable primer on evaluating RVs for one's first purchase. I'm going to copy and paste this into a Word document for future reference. You have been very helpful.

[ron_dittmer]

Snowman9000 wrote:
Construction: hopefully Ron Dittmer will stop by and post his message on that. I personally am not bothered by a rubber roof, but some are. I do want a molded cap over the cab though, for sure.

When shopping for any conventional class-C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. What methods are built to last, and what methods are built to be most affordable.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" and/or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water penetration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets in, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Mold can also form and then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a Reliably Well Sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.75 to 2 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, door, roof-top vents and a/c unit, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes are limited in size.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans, many thousands of times. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lower stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. Winnebago's View Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. The Nexus Phantom applies a partial bucket concept. If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, that extra bed would be extremely important.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after the caulk has dried out from age & sun, as well as fatigue from the change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down the wall a few inches. The fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A 5 Sided Rear Wall Cap
This 5 sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also rare exception like the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of those three brands since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter is the least powered chassis. People who tow with a Sprinter, take it slower.

If considering a recent “small” class B+/C motor home, here is a comparison between the two main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years, and even more anticipated with the upcoming Ford T-Series chassis. The general public hopes it will become available for the RV industry. It is kind-of like a Sprinter in size and fuel economy, but hopeful to be much more affordable.

The Chevy GMC 3500/4500 Chassis
I do not understand why this chassis is not more popular. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches to store your rig, the Chevy/GMC adds an additional 9" to the front bumper compared to the Ford. I learned that researching rigs that could fit in my 25'-0" deep garage. By default, the Ford gave me 9 more inches to work with. If you examine my motor home in my garage HERE, you will see an extra 9 inches in length might have been detrimental.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, Sprinter, & GMC/Chevy
Ford - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Srinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
GMC/Chevy - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft

[pgustaf249]

Snowman9000 wrote:
You should add Nexus to your list. I have never seen one, but people who have, seem to really like them.

Winnebago makes both C's and B+'s, but I can't remember offhand which model is which. I do know their B+ comes in 27+ foot and 30+ foot floorplans.

Great. I have added the Nexus to my list. From reviewing things online I think we will want to max out on overall length somewhere around 26 ft =/-, and there seems to be a good number of options. That may change once we start inspecting/renting these units.

Another questions. Will dealers rent the RVs their trying to sell or must one go to a place whose business is just renting RVs?

[Snowman9000]

You should add Nexus to your list. I have never seen one, but people who have, seem to really like them.

Winnebago makes both C's and B+'s, but I can't remember offhand which model is which. I do know their B+ comes in 27+ foot and 30+ foot floorplans.

[pgustaf249]

Wow! You guys have provided great input for which I am grateful. 🙂 So as the result of my own research before finding you guys and as a result of input from the group here, I have compiled the following list of B+ RVs all of which have been recommended by at least one person: Phoenix Cruiser, Winnebago View/Navion, Winnebago Aspect (not sure if that’s a B+ or a C), Monaco Montclair, BT Cruiser, Coach House, Born Free, Leisure, Holiday Rambler Augusta B+ and Triple E. If anyone who has any experience with any of these, and you have not yet chimed in, I would be delighted to hear about your experience.

[Snowman9000]

pgustaf249 wrote:

rmmpe wrote:
Take a look at Phoenix Cruiser. They offer a few models in your range on either a Ford or Sprinter chassis. They'll also work with you with minor layout modifications and accessories. We're on our 3rd because we like their operation, exemplary customer service and quality.
No, I do not work for them.

I peeked at their website which provides a lot of info. We would likely be interested in the 2100 or the 2400. It looks like the range is right by the door. How do you stand in front of the range when there is a stair well right there? Or am I overlooking something?

No, that's how those models are. You basically stand in the steps or straddle them. Unfortunate design IMO.