Towing 5th wheel converted to car hauler

[einstein2nd]

I have a '03 Fleetwood Bounder 36 foot WorkHorse Chassis 8.1 vortec:
The GCVW: 26,000 lbs
The GVWR: 22,000 lbs
Tow Capacity: 5,000 lbs
Tongue Capacity: 500 lbs

This brings up a few questions: Why does the GCVW allow only 4,000 lbs towable when the actual tow capacity is 5,000 lbs?

I have a '78 5th wheel travel trailer 31 foot.
I plan to cut it down to 23' and weld a 3' ball tongue on the front after chopping off the 5th wheel hitch. I have gutted everything out of the trailer: living, kitchen, dining, bathroom, and soon the bedroom. Right now it is just an empty box on wheels. I plan to re-enforce the flooring to handle the car and motorcycles.

I want to tow:
Car: 3083 lbs (sports car sits 6" off the ground)
Harley: 553 lbs
Dirt Bike: 250 lbs
A total of: 3886 lbs
Leaving me: 1114 lbs for the trailer

Another question: Should I use the 4,000 tow capacity via the GCVW or the Tow Capacity of 5,000 lbs via the tow package? If I use the GCVW I will only have 114 lbs for the trailer. I'm leaning towards the 4k lbs.

My main questions are: How much would a 23' enclosed trailer weigh using the 5th wheel frame? Due to the limits should I just make the 5th wheel a flat bed car hauler or would I still fall outside the limits? What would the flat bed car hauler weigh?

I'm afraid that I might not be able to tow at least the car and Harley so I am asking others to see what they think. I'm confused as to which weight limit should I use; 4,000 or 5,000?

Also, can I upgrade the hitch on the motorhome to handle more tongue weight or would it not be recommended?

Another idea: Using the tandem axles from the 5th wheel I build a box trailer to hold the motorcycles and then build a car dolly behind the box. The front two wheels of the car would be over one axle of tandem axles and the box would utilize the other. The box would extend over the tongue of the trailer. I hope this makes sense.

The image link to post an image requires a url only.

[wny_pat1]

einstein2nd wrote:
According to California, anything over 40' requires a higher class driver's license. I believe that is due to the weight. If a 36' weighs 22k lbs. I know for sure that the coaches will weigh more especially anything over 40'. The only way to convert over to commercial is if you provide services via your motorhome. Which doing so would not be cost effective due to gas prices.

Url to CA DMV RV handbook
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

With you being in the military, I would think you would be licensed in your home state of record, and not in the state where you are stationed. I know that most state consider military member's drivers licenses to be valid even if they are expired. I know I alway maintained my drivers license that way when I was active duty. And I know that NYS, along with many other states, still permit that. They have a card that can be downloaded and filled out by the service member which extends their drivers license.

[wny_pat1]

einstein2nd wrote:
I have a '03 Fleetwood Bounder 36 foot WorkHorse Chassis 8.1 vortec:
The GCVW: 26,000 lbs
The GVWR: 22,000 lbs
Tow Capacity: 5,000 lbs
Tongue Capacity: 500 lbs

This brings up a few questions: Why does the GCVW allow only 4,000 lbs towable when the actual tow capacity is 5,000 lbs?

The GCVW is the final Gross Combined Vehicle Weight set by the final vehicle manufacturer as the total weight that the motorhome (or truck)can haul. The Tow Capacity and Tongue Capacity is limited by the hitch that the manufacturer spec'ed for your motorhome. The GCVW is the total that the vehicle can pull and is affected by axle limitations, rear differential limitions, spring limitations, engine limitations, drive train limitations, and other limiting factors. The hitch mounted on the vehicle does not change the GCVW, but may also limit it!

And the only authority to upgrade the GCVW is the final manufacturer, Fleetwood, under the authority of the NTHSA/USDOT.

[wny_pat1]

sgip2000 wrote:
The low tow rating is likely due to the magic 26,000lbs number that anything higher would move it into "commercial" territory.

Does not move it into commercial territory. Where do you get that from???

[einstein2nd]

To: Old-biscuit,

There is a scale on base but for commercial use only. I tried to set up an appointment and the supervisor said that I would have to be PCSing and some other things.

I'm thinking that the local dump scales would be my next best option I'll research their number and call them before loading up and driving there.

To: Sgip2000,

According to California, anything over 40' requires a higher class driver's license. I believe that is due to the weight. If a 36' weighs 22k lbs. I know for sure that the coaches will weigh more especially anything over 40'. The only way to convert over to commercial is if you provide services via your motorhome. Which doing so would not be cost effective due to gas prices.

Url to CA DMV RV handbook
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

To: 1fastdad,

Thank you, so, as long as I stay within the 26k lbs I'll be okay. Plus I have to stay within the hitches: 5k dead weight and 500 tongue weight or upgrade it. If I want to tow 5k lbs I should upgrade the hitch; or would it be okay to use the 5k hitch as long as I stay less than the 5k limit?

After talking with everyone here I am thinking that converting the 5th wheel over to an enclosed car hauler would put me over the 5k limit of the hitch and drive train. I would have to convert it over to a flatbed car hauler and if I do that I was informed that a car hauler of the same size weighs about 1220 lbs empty. It will allow me to tow just the car and harley only.

After running this by all of you I finally decided to walk away from the 5th wheel conversion project and look for a car hauler that is already built.

I want to say thank you all for your responses and suggestions. I really appreciate all your responses.

In the future, I plan to upgrade MH to DP hoping that it will increase the tow capacity and tongue weight. If it does then I'll convert the 5th wheel to an enclosed car hauler. 🙂

[dkreuzen]

A trailer weight of 1114 lbs that can carry the load you propose would be in the all aluminum trailer category. My 16' tandem axle wood deck steel trailer with one spare tire is over 1600 lbs.

[1fastdad]

sgip2000 wrote:
The low tow rating is likely due to the magic 26,000lbs number that anything higher would move it into "commercial" territory.

A CDL is only required is you haul freight for a fee. Some states require a differant license for vehicles over a given amount or over a given length but this is only if you live in that state.

[1fastdad]

The 26000 lbs is the limit for the drive train. The 24000 lbs is the limit for the weight of the MH loaded. The 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue weight is the limit for the hitch.If you weigh your MH enpty you will find how much you can add too that before you reach the total of 26000lbs.

[Bumpyroad]

sgip2000 wrote:
The low tow rating is likely due to the magic 26,000lbs number that anything higher would move it into "commercial" territory.

I don't know about "commercial" but in many states it will move it into a different driver's license category.
bumpy

[Old-Biscuit]

Isn't there a weigh station/scales just outside entrance to base......on same road to base??

I remember one but can't find it.

[hipower]

sgip2000 wrote:
The low tow rating is likely due to the magic 26,000lbs number that anything higher would move it into "commercial" territory.

I don't believe there is any way that an RV in private service moves into a "Commercial" category.

If that were true my Dutch Star @ 30,000# GVW would be there already and there are plenty of bigger and heavier coaches out there operating.

[einstein2nd]

To: Bumpy,

I thought about that and I believe that I am less than 21k lbs but I plan to weigh the MH before connecting or loading the trailer.

On that note does anyone know where the nearest weigh station from 29 Palms, CA that will weigh a MH? I was thinking about the local dump... does anyone know if this is allowed?

To: Ivylog,

Tongue weight: I plan to do a 60/40 weight balance on the trailer. After doing some math: car 3083 divided by 2 = 1541.5 lbs.
Half the car weight would be on the rear of the trailer and the other half would be over the front axle of the tandems. The Harley and dirt bike = 803 lbs on the front; 1542 - 803 = 738.5 lbs negative on the tongue not including the 60% of the trailer. I didn't count the weight of the engine but due to the car being a sports car I believe the manufacturers balanced the car front to back as the same for side to side (that is why I split it evenly). If I put the bikes closer to the front of the car hauler the weight on the tongue will increase due to leverage using the tandems as pivot points. As for re-enforcing the tongue I like the idea and will try to implement it. I would like to retain the 5th wheel electric jacks so the support arms will be retained, hopefully. This will increase the tongue weight as well. The 5' tongue makes plenty of sense and I will try to implement it without increasing the weight too much.

As for ramps: haven't really spent much time on fabricating a set. I might create a tilting mechanism but then I would need some kind of locking mechanism to keep it from tilting; doing this could increase the weight beyond my limitations; or just fabricate ramps and store above the tires if limitations allow it.

To: Okgc

I do plan to upgrade the tow package on the MH but will need to extend the frame via manufacturer's frame extensions or fabricating my own.

If anyone has information on getting the frame extended it would be appreciated.

I want to say thank you for the comparison it gives me a better ball park figure of what I am working with. I will remove the dirt bike and store it else where. This will remove 250 lbs which changes my calculations. I am leaning more towards a flat bed now which I would hate to demolish the 5th wheel enclosure it looks very spacious with everything out. 🙂

Just the car and your trailer will come to 4303 lbs leaving me 697 lbs if the MH is less than 21k lbs. So I will use the 1220 lbs as a figure to work with for now until I weigh the trailer.

A thought came to mind: if I move the dirt bike from the trailer and build a platform or mount on the front of the MH for the bike I might be within my limitations on the front axle. hmmmm what do you think?

NOTE:
car dimensions: 15' long by 71" wide by 48" high
Harley: 7' long by 3' wide by 36" high

I can shorten the trailer to 20' and still have plenty of space. If I do this I might as well build the trailer from scratch and use the 5th wheel for another purpose. Maybe clean it up a bit and then sell as an enclosed 5th wheel car hauler for those that have the means to tow it.

[okgc]

IMO the 1st item you should do is weigh your loaded to travel motorhome.
26,000 lbs - (MH actual weight) = max loaded trailer weight per specs

2nd) make sure trailer receiver on MH is atleast 10,000 lbs plus. Replace if less. ALSO Check your chassis for rear frame extensions as these seem to be the weak link.

I suspect you will not be successful getting your enclosed trailer to weigh less than 1114 lbs as my open car hauler is about 1220 with out a spare tire or mounted tool box.

With a MH going over 26K does not put you into commercial territory.

X2

[Ivylog]

I would be concerned about the amount of tongue weight you will have by converting a 5er to a TT as 5ers tend to have 15 to 20% tongue weight which will put you way over your 500 lbs although you may be able to put the car in last and balance it out better. I would go with a 5' tongue so you are less likely to hit the back of the MH in a tight turn or jack knife. I would run two braces from the top of what's left of the 5er hitch down to just behind the ball to help strengthen the new hitch. What are you going to do for the ramp?
With a MH going over 26K does not put you into commercial territory.

[sgip2000]

The low tow rating is likely due to the magic 26,000lbs number that anything higher would move it into "commercial" territory.