Towing - Cargo - Fuel Type - Egads

[PNW_Wood]

Hi,

New member first post. Never had a MH and we are thinking about what it looks like to be an owner. I've read through some of the intro's and FAQ's, thank you so much for taking the time to put all that information together. I'll refer back to it numerous times I'm sure

We plan to buy a house in Mexico, along the Pacific Riviera between Mazatlan and Puerto Vallarta. The discussion as it goes right now is to spend 8'ish months down there, then come back into the states for 4'ish months. We have family in Pacific NW and Texas (and AZ actually). We'd spend the June through Sept months in the states visiting family, staying away from the intolerable heat of coastal MX.

Having an RV and using that as home base when we are in the states seems to make a lot of sense to us. It allows us to bring our dog, car, etc., not have to pay for a place in the states, blah blah.

In the research I've done so far it seems ULSD is not an option in Mexico and it seems it won't be for an undetermined amount of time... so that puts me in the gas world. Fine

I plan to tow a Jeep. My impression from what I've been able to glean so far, is only the tongue weight ads to the cargo payload? Can someone confirm this? Other weight issues for towing is simply to make sure the hitch is rated to handle the weight of the toad???

For those with gas rigs - is cargo weight a constant balancing act? It seems like there are real narrow margins when it comes to the gas rigs. We aren't hauling kids and toys, but I imagine with all the variety of things you can take... camp gear type stuff, that all ads up quick. Have you gassers had buyers remorse for always being up against capacity?

So far the Coachman Mirada and Fleetwood Bounder or Flair have interior layouts that look attractive. I've not sat in any yet, just looking at floorplans and pictures. Any comments from owners on these manufacturers and models?

Thanks for feedback. Sorry for the long post, figured some context on me and our plans might help with your answers

[PNW_Wood]

Thanks Tom (I'm guessing its Tom from your sig). Everything you say about size, layout, etc., makes total sense. I've been looking at a lot of floor plans and I'm sure you know there is a lot of them. That said, I am starting to see a pattern in the type of layouts that look better to us than others.

Thanks to everyone else as well.

Like I mentioned, we are going to a dealer on Saturday. We are actually a few years from pulling the trigger on this, so I've got plenty of time to learn and figure out what we want to do. The beauty of that is the new models we look at now will be what we can afford in a few years 🙂

[tatest]

You need to pay attention to GVWR of the chassis vs actual weight of the motorhome. These weights, from measurements at the factory, are posted somewhere within each motorhome.

Manufacturer to manufacturer, different model lines of each manufacturer, there will be a lot of variation, particularly Class A gassers. A manufacturer might put a 16,000 pound motorhome on a 18,000 GVWR chassis in an entry level model line, and put a similar floorplan at 16,500 pounds on a 20,000 GVWR chassis. With all those Ford F-53 chassis out there, both will be 26,000 GCWR, the cheaper one can tow 8000 fully loaded, the more expensive one only 6000, though you are much less likely to load it to max. Both will likely come out of the RV manufacturer with a 5000 tow rating, because of the hitch installed.

Going into the buying process, you need to have a good idea of how much weight you want to carry, how much weight you want to tow. Then you check the numbers for each example you consider for purchase.

The really critical issue in buying is not whether it needs ULSD, what it can carry, what it can tow. Those things (at least the latter two) can be worked out quickly if you have realistic needs.

The critical issue is "can we live in this thing" which depends on how it is layed out, how you want to use it, and is less dependent on size than a lot of people think. I've met couples full timing in 13 and 16 foot egg trailers, 12-foot A-frame popups, and others who can't live together with each other in anything less than a 45-foot MH with full wall slideouts on both sides. I wanted a 21-foot van conversion, my wife needed at least 200 sq ft of house.

You need to get into some RVs before you have an idea of what fits your needs, then you can start working on technical details.

Tag axle is additional axle to carry more weight, since DOT puts per-axle weight limits on vehicles, usually 20,000 pounds maximum for a single axle. Thus you'll see four load carrying axles (plus steer on the tractor) of a 80,000 pound truck, and extra axles, sometimes liftable tags, for trucks that carry even heavier loads. You start seeing tag axles on motorhomes when GVWR starts getting over 34,000-36,000 pounds, on up to about 54,000 pounds for the heaviest Prevost coaches.

[PNW_Wood]

rk911 wrote:

New member first post. Never had a MH and we are thinking about w
no worries. you are wise to ask these questions.

interior layouts or floorplans are important, no question about it. but you also need to understand your motorhome's actual weight and weight ratings. doing that will ensure that you do not overload either axle and that you can safely tow a car or trailer.

the RV industry has created plethora of weight ratings but it all boils down to this:

GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating): this is the total amount of weight the MH chassis can support including itself.

GAWR (gross vehicle axle rating): this is the total weight each axle can support. each axle will have a different GAWR, usually, but not always, the GVWR will be the sum of the GAWRs.

GCWR (gross combination weight rating): the total weight the MH can propel including itself. the GVWR + the weight rating of the hitch is usually, but not always, equal to the GCWR. for example our MH has a GVR of 26,000-lbs and a 5,000-lb hitch but the GCWR is 30,000-lbs.

Empty Wight: the weight of the MH as it came from the factory. No fresh water, LP, food, etc.

Payload: the difference between the GVWR and empty weight (per axle). this will tell you how much weight you can add to each axle.

GVW (gross vehicle weight): the total weight of the MH as it is loaded for travel. this includes full fuel, water and LP tanks, food, clothing, supplies, gear, pets, people, stuff, etc.

GAW (gross axle weight): same as above except the total weight on each axle. the sum of the GAWs will be the GVW. it's important to get individual axle weights as it is possible to be underweight on one axle, overweight on the other and still weigh less than the GVWR. I know this from personal experience.

it may sound complicated but it really isn't. the dealers will quoye you all sorts of other weight ratings such as CCC, Sleeping weight, wet weight, etc. stick to the basics and you'll be fine.

in terms of towing, once you know the GVW of the MH you can determine just how much weight you can safely tow be it car, dolly or trailer.
in general, the maximum amount of weight you can safely tow will be the lesser of the following:

- the GCWR of the MH minus the actual weight of the MH as it is loaded for travel (includes fuel, fresh water, food, clothing, people, pets, supplies, etc.)

- the weight rating of your tow bar

- the weight rating of your hitch

good luck.

Thanks. So, if I read this correctly, there is no way to know up front if I"m getting something that can handle towing and desired amount of "stuff" loaded up? I need the GVW

How do you do into a purchasing process, used or new, and know you aren't backing yourself into a corner?

[Ivylog]

A tag axle is a third axle behind the drive axle. Once you get to 40' or longer most DPs run out of CCC so a tag increases it to 9000+ CCC. A tag is one of those things that once you've had it you will never be without it. It is amazing how much it improves the handling. I still do 12-14 hour days... 1500 miles in two days as my DP handles that well. Do a search for RR10S...top left and longer than 12 months. AquaHot heat and Girrard awnings are also in the category of once you've had them, you'll never be without.

Unfortunately there are still some on here that say 40' or more is too long for public campgrounds such as NP, SP, USFS BLM campgrounds. We just completed two months out west without reservations staying mainly in public campgrounds. We do this approximately every other year for the last 12 years without reservations. USFS that do not take reservations are our favorite... only trick is to not show up on Friday, show up Monday when the working folks have gone home.

I would recommend Monaco, Beaver, HR, Foretravel... some will add Newell and Prevost but they will cost you twice as much for the same year.

PS: J-Rooster, you were not first. :B

[rk911]

PNW Wood wrote:
Hi,

New member first post. Never had a MH and we are thinking about what it looks like to be an owner. I've read through some of the intro's and FAQ's, thank you so much for taking the time to put all that information together. I'll refer back to it numerous times I'm sure

We plan to buy a house in Mexico, along the Pacific Riviera between Mazatlan and Puerto Vallarta. The discussion as it goes right now is to spend 8'ish months down there, then come back into the states for 4'ish months. We have family in Pacific NW and Texas (and AZ actually). We'd spend the June through Sept months in the states visiting family, staying away from the intolerable heat of coastal MX.

Having an RV and using that as home base when we are in the states seems to make a lot of sense to us. It allows us to bring our dog, car, etc., not have to pay for a place in the states, blah blah.

In the research I've done so far it seems ULSD is not an option in Mexico and it seems it won't be for an undetermined amount of time... so that puts me in the gas world. Fine

I plan to tow a Jeep. My impression from what I've been able to glean so far, is only the tongue weight ads to the cargo payload? Can someone confirm this? Other weight issues for towing is simply to make sure the hitch is rated to handle the weight of the toad???

For those with gas rigs - is cargo weight a constant balancing act? It seems like there are real narrow margins when it comes to the gas rigs. We aren't hauling kids and toys, but I imagine with all the variety of things you can take... camp gear type stuff, that all ads up quick. Have you gassers had buyers remorse for always being up against capacity?

So far the Coachman Mirada and Fleetwood Bounder or Flair have interior layouts that look attractive. I've not sat in any yet, just looking at floorplans and pictures. Any comments from owners on these manufacturers and models?

Thanks for feedback. Sorry for the long post, figured some context on me and our plans might help with your answers

no worries. you are wise to ask these questions.

interior layouts or floorplans are important, no question about it. but you also need to understand your motorhome's actual weight and weight ratings. doing that will ensure that you do not overload either axle and that you can safely tow a car or trailer.

the RV industry has created plethora of weight ratings but it all boils down to this:

GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating): this is the total amount of weight the MH chassis can support including itself.

GAWR (gross vehicle axle rating): this is the total weight each axle can support. each axle will have a different GAWR, usually, but not always, the GVWR will be the sum of the GAWRs.

GCWR (gross combination weight rating): the total weight the MH can propel including itself. the GVWR + the weight rating of the hitch is usually, but not always, equal to the GCWR. for example our MH has a GVR of 26,000-lbs and a 5,000-lb hitch but the GCWR is 30,000-lbs.

Empty Wight: the weight of the MH as it came from the factory. No fresh water, LP, food, etc.

Payload: the difference between the GVWR and empty weight (per axle). this will tell you how much weight you can add to each axle.

GVW (gross vehicle weight): the total weight of the MH as it is loaded for travel. this includes full fuel, water and LP tanks, food, clothing, supplies, gear, pets, people, stuff, etc.

GAW (gross axle weight): same as above except the total weight on each axle. the sum of the GAWs will be the GVW. it's important to get individual axle weights as it is possible to be underweight on one axle, overweight on the other and still weigh less than the GVWR. I know this from personal experience.

it may sound complicated but it really isn't. the dealers will quoye you all sorts of other weight ratings such as CCC, Sleeping weight, wet weight, etc. stick to the basics and you'll be fine.

in terms of towing, once you know the GVW of the MH you can determine just how much weight you can safely tow be it car, dolly or trailer.
in general, the maximum amount of weight you can safely tow will be the lesser of the following:

- the GCWR of the MH minus the actual weight of the MH as it is loaded for travel (includes fuel, fresh water, food, clothing, people, pets, supplies, etc.)

- the weight rating of your tow bar

- the weight rating of your hitch

good luck.

[PNW_Wood]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I had a long serious talk with the boss last night and I guess we are going to adjust and likely not dump a bunch of liquid assets into a house down there. They do appreciate in value, but it is a perpetual buyers market. places will sit on the market for years, and they aren't "cheap" anymore.

What exactly does it mean "tag axle"?

Since we aren't going to buy a house down there, it will be more important I think to go bigger. We still plan to go to MX regularly so we will need to stay away from ULSD (unless it suddenly becomes an option before we jump in to the MH world). We can stay up to six months on tourist visa without any special hoops to jump through. There are a ton of MH sites along the riviera based on my initial research, so we can have week long stays at a lot of different places.

As it is now, we are going to sell everything and travel for a while. Trying to figure out where we want to live. Pacific NW is too cold/damp and summers too short, so we need to figure it out. Plans will probably change ten more times at least, but getting somewhere warmer will always be the primary objective.

I think the suggestions to go bigger make sense. Even though it is just the two of us and a dog, I can see where the <30' units might feel cramped after a while

What do you all consider to be too high mileage when it comes to a 2005/06 model?

Are there "stay away" VS "usually a safe buy" set of builders? (I know, I've done enough reading to know what I'm getting into and I might get different responses for the same manufacturer) Sounds like Manaco might be one of the more popular units? I see a lot of Tiffen's too. Holiday Rambler?

thanks

[Dale_Traveling]

PNW Wood wrote:

As a general rule I think I'm looking for a wide gap between GVWR and GCWR?

It's helpful but the wide gap you really need is between the empty weight and the GVWR. There should be a build sheet in the coach somewhere such as the back wall of a closet or cabinet that might have the as built weight. Not all manufactures include the number but look anyways.

Considering your intended used as a semi-full timer I would give serious consideration for a late model diesel pusher that can burn fuel available on both sides of the boarder. There are full timers out and about getting by and enjoying life in tents, pop up trailers, P/U bed slide in campers or even small gas class C's but you need to be a minimalist to make it happen successfully. A 36-40' diesel brings a lot of options with both the chassis and house that will make long term or even part time living a bit easier and more comfortable.

[theoldwizard1]

Slightly off topic : For folks with gasser MH who visit Mexico, is gasoline "quality" (octane) and issue ? Do you carry "octane booster", just in case ?

[J-Rooster]

Let me be the first one to welcome you to RV.Net. I own a 35' gasser and tow a 14 CRV and I haven't encountered any weight problems whatsoever in my journeys over the road. I mainly travel from WA. State to Lake Havasu City, AZ. I can also tell you anything I buy for my RV I think light in weight! Example : I wouldn't buy a cast iron skillet for my RV even though I use them at home. I would go with a lighter material in my RV. Your life style is a dream to me living on the Pacific Riviera especially Puerto Vallarta I love the people and the weather down there. Due to medical care for me I can't make those types of journeys! Good Luck

[wolfe10]

To take the "can I use LSD/not required to use ULSD diesel:

It is the ENGINE production date that dictates the emission standards it must meet. So, not related to chassis build date or "model year" or coach build date of "model year".

Engines built after 1/1/07 required ULSD. Certainly true for Cat and Cummins. Don't recall Navistar who went a different direction in their (attempt to meet) emissions standards, but very few of them on RV's.

[Ivylog]

BobGed wrote:
ULSD fuel is only required on vehicles built to EPA 07 standards and later. I believe the first EPA 07 engines were in model year 2008, so anything prior to that would use standard #2 diesel

You need a 06 diesel engine and many 07 year DPs will have a 06 engine. Monaco bought up a bunch of 06 engines and I've even seen a 06 engine in a 09 Monaco. All you have to do is look at the exhaust, if it has a normal muffler... no wires or lines going to it... it's 06 or older engine.

If you buy a big enough DP... 42' to 45' you do not need to buy a house in Mexico... go full time in the MH. Once you go that big you have a tag axle which will give you 8000+ Cargo Carrying Capacity. CCC is posted in the MH of that vintage, often behind a cabinet door in the the closet. You are correct to worry about the amount of CCC in a gas MH that you will use for four months.

I'm at 12 years on my DP and I see no reason why it will not go another 12... probably out lasting me. You can find nice, big, 06 DPs with 50K miles for less than $100K. My insurance company will not let me have a higher stated value than $75K.

I'll assume a home in Mexico will increase in value while a MH will definitely decrease. Subtract the cost of owning a home compared to renting a RV site from what you think the appreciation will be on the house. Is still owning for 8 months a good deal? Having to have two of many things becomes a pain, or you have to move things back and fourth to the MH.

Sorry about throwing a different approach to your situation... Good Luck

*PS: Welcome to the forums.:W and there is a Full Timing section in thebox above on the right.

You are correct that only the weight of the tow bar goes against CCC BUT the weight of the jeep goes against the gross combined weight rating or gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of the MH which could decrease your CCC.

[PNW_Wood]

Dale.Traveling wrote:


Did I confuse the you even more?

Yes, I'm afraid so. I'm going to keep reading and eventually it will come to me.

We are going to visit a dealer this weekend so we can actually sit inside one for a bit. My folks had a DP but other than a quick tour we never spent much time in it. Unfortunately my stepfather is gone so he can't pass on his knowledge to me.

Anyway, I'm a visual learner, so hopefully in some of our visits a dealer can pencil out the math for me

As a general rule I think I'm looking for a wide gap between GVWR and GCWR?

[BobGed]

ULSD fuel is only required on vehicles built to EPA 07 standards and later. I believe the first EPA 07 engines were in model year 2008, so anything prior to that would use standard #2 diesel fuel which is readily available in Mexico.

[Dale_Traveling]

With vehicle towed behind a coach there is minimal vertical or tongue weight added but the weight of the vehicle counts against the overall weight limits of the coach. Take an average gas coach, as an example, which might have a 22,000 pounds weight limit on the tires (aka GVWR) but an overall maximum weight of 26,000 pounds (aka GCWR) which would be when towing something. But there's an added twist. The 4000 pound difference isn't your towing limit. If you load your coach to 20,500 pounds you can use the extra 1500 pounds in what ever you might be towing. But there's another twist. You can only tow up to the maximum limit of the weakest component in the towing chain such as the hitch receiver on the coach at 5000 pounds so you lost the extra 500 pounds.

Not just gas rigs but diesels can also be a balancing act. Comes down to the chassis the builder picked and how heavy the house they built on it. What you, as a potential buyer, have to do is research and ask question of owners who have or had a coach you might be considering and more research. Most, but not all builders will publish the coach as built weight and the cargo carrying capacity (aka CCC). The bigger the CCC the better.

Did I confuse the you even more?