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Two Surge Protectors?

Jim_Norman
Explorer
Explorer
I have a Plug-In Surge Protector.
My new Coach has a built in Surge Protector.
So Can I use both?
Does it make a better protective system?
Will it even work?
Are there any issues?
Can this cause a problem?

Thanks
2016 Tiffin Allegro Red 38QBA
2008 Jeep Liberty (aka FireToad)
36 REPLIES 36

Mile_High
Explorer
Explorer
westom wrote:
Mile High wrote:
by the way, what the heck is the "pole"? The pedestal?
Pole (or pedestal) obviously is what an RV connects to.
Not that obvious, clearly. Helps if you call it what it is instead of assuming anyone knows what you are trying to say. I don't think I have ever plugged into a "pole" in 40 years of RVing. Must be one of those "anomolies" you keep referring to.

Having an 18' power pole in your campsite as your power source really changes the dynamics with regard to lightning attraction.
2013 Winnebago Itasca Meridian 42E
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara Towed

Jim_Norman
Explorer
Explorer
OK, so I plug my unit into the 'pole' then I plug my bus into the surge protector the cord terminates at my transfer switch which is also an additional protector. Seems that this is about the best one can do. I am covered for all but the absolute worst case,a direct hit by lightning.
2016 Tiffin Allegro Red 38QBA
2008 Jeep Liberty (aka FireToad)

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Mile High wrote:
by the way, what the heck is the "pole"? The pedestal?
Pole (or pedestal) obviously is what an RV connects to.

Mile_High
Explorer
Explorer
Hahaha, by the way, what the heck is the "pole"? The pedestal? If your talking a power pole, those are few and far between out here in the modernized west 🙂
2013 Winnebago Itasca Meridian 42E
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara Towed

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Jim Norman wrote:
I understand that a direct hit by a bolt of lightning is probably not going to be within the protective spec of any surge protector available for an RV.
Nonsense. As explained, if a protector connects low impedance to a pole, then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Then effective protection from direct lightning strikes exists.

For RVs, an effective protector for this anomaly is a type that locates at / on the pole. Since this anomaly is rare, many want a protector for other and more problematic anomalies. Such as missing ground, brownouts, and open neutrals.

Jim_Norman
Explorer
Explorer
I understand that a direct hit by a bolt of lightning is probably not going to be within the protective spec of any surge protector available for an RV. I have had my unit kick in with low power, open ground and the like. That is what I was looking for. My original question was and sort of still is, Is it OK to use two? I think the consensus is Yes.
2016 Tiffin Allegro Red 38QBA
2008 Jeep Liberty (aka FireToad)

Desert_Captain
Explorer III
Explorer III
Yes surge protection systems work. Different brands and products give different results. Generally speaking you will get what you pay for. I started out with a simple $100 unit and upgraded to Progressive Industries $300 EMS. Will they stop damage in a direct lightning strike? Of course not. Taking a direct hit will generate problems far beyond frying your AC and other toys. :S

In the last three years I have encountered a dozen bad pedestals {all of which were detected by my protection units}, any one of which could have caused me serious grief. Will a simple surge protector tell you if the pedestal has a fault {bad ground, neutral etc.}, absolutely. You can then move to another site or get repairs made to the one you are in.

Will and EMS shut down the power if the voltage goes too high or low, YES! imagine a crowded, older campground/RV Park on a hot afternoon. Everybody cranks up their AC at the same time and the voltage throughout the park/CG drops dramatically. Those with protection suffer no damage. Those without end up buying new compressors or worse.

That feature alone makes the price of an EMS money well spent vs repairing/replacing your AC, grig, TV, stereo, microwave etc..

For those that think they have no value... you are wrong! "Penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind.

As always.... Opinions and YMMV.

:R

Jim_Norman
Explorer
Explorer
ok, final question, IS THERE A 'SURGE PROTECTOR THAT WORKS?
2016 Tiffin Allegro Red 38QBA
2008 Jeep Liberty (aka FireToad)

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from potentially destructive anomalies. Other anomalies require other solutions. Cited is at least one anomaly that a built-in Surge Guard (apparently) does not protect from. An anomaly that is too common and dangerous in campgrounds.

Relevant are anomalies that each device does and does not protect from. A recommendation that does not discuss each with numbers is how scams get promoted. Apparently you want to be told what to believe - do not want to know what is required for an honest recommendations.

Does a built-in Surge Guard report a missing safety ground? That can be a concern. Plug-in protector does nothing useful. In some cases, it has caused fire.

Mile_High
Explorer
Explorer
westom wrote:
Mile High wrote:
Are you saying that NONE of these devices we are discussing are any more effective than a home strip surge suppressor because we don't have an effective ground within 10'?

Stop jumping to subjective conclusions. Deal with individual facts one at a time. If making conclusions from subjective beliefs and emotions, then every reply will make you feel like a child.

Stated were numbers for that one protector. Understand the significance of those numbers before making any conclusion. Why assume numbers for one anomaly define all protectors for all anomalies? Why jump to that unjustified conclusion? Therein lies your first problem. You want to be indignant rather than first learn what stuff does for each anomaly - with numbers.

Defined is why that one protector function is ineffective. Nobody said anything about earthing a rig. By remembering what Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago, or by remembering how electricity works, then earthing a rig would make damage easier.

Did I ignore other benefits such as detecting polarity, missing neutral, etc? Obviously not. Why did you ignore those first two paragraphs? Each completely different anomaly must be discussed separately.

Thumbs up or down are for consumers who want to be told how to think (also called brainwashing). Informed consumers learn how to separate scams from science. That means every reply and question should include or be based in perspective. That means numbers. Your every speculation is devoid of spec numbers. You want to assume all anomalies are same.

What do 2600 joules in that Surge Guard do? Nothing useful. Do those joules protect from other anomalies? No.

Does a Surge Guard protect from reverse polarity? Protect what? Reverse polarity does not harm appliances. Polarity is a human safety function. So what is being protected?

Does it protect from phase variation, frequency variation, excessive harmonics, or EMC/EMI? Apparently not. Is that protection required? Your answer should include numbers. Since each potential threat must be defined BEFORE recommending any solution. And each discussed separately.

Does it protect from an open safety ground? Apparently not even though that is a too common anomaly in campgrounds. It really should detect that anomaly.

Does it protect from brownouts? Say so with numbers. Is that protection necessary? If making conclusions from subjective reasoning, then tell us why. Remember to list what in an RV does and does not need for protection.

Of course 2600 joules says nothing about these other anomalies. What numbers exist so that one can make a conclusion?

Long before demanding a solution or being indignant, first define each threat. Which anomalies require effective protection? Tell us which anomalies are of concern in a campground - with numbers. Only then can a solution be discussed.
Wow - I tried man. It sounded in the beginning as if you had some background and could contribute some value to the OPs question, or even mine, but you answer with 16 more questions. I was just looking for what your recommendation was but it's not worth the trauma.

Jim Norman wrote:
I have a Plug-In Surge Protector.
My new Coach has a built in Surge Protector.
So Can I use both?
Does it make a better protective system?
Will it even work?
Are there any issues?
Can this cause a problem?

Thanks


This was the OPs question - ask him which anomalies are of concern in a campground - with numbers..
2013 Winnebago Itasca Meridian 42E
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara Towed

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Mile High wrote:
Are you saying that NONE of these devices we are discussing are any more effective than a home strip surge suppressor because we don't have an effective ground within 10'?

Stop jumping to subjective conclusions. Deal with individual facts one at a time. If making conclusions from subjective beliefs and emotions, then every reply will make you feel like a child.

Stated were numbers for that one protector. Understand the significance of those numbers before making any conclusion. Why assume numbers for one anomaly define all protectors for all anomalies? Why jump to that unjustified conclusion? Therein lies your first problem. You want to be indignant rather than first learn what stuff does for each anomaly - with numbers.

Defined is why that one protector function is ineffective. Nobody said anything about earthing a rig. By remembering what Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago, or by remembering how electricity works, then earthing a rig would make damage easier.

Did I ignore other benefits such as detecting polarity, missing neutral, etc? Obviously not. Why did you ignore those first two paragraphs? Each completely different anomaly must be discussed separately.

Thumbs up or down are for consumers who want to be told how to think (also called brainwashing). Informed consumers learn how to separate scams from science. That means every reply and question should include or be based in perspective. That means numbers. Your every speculation is devoid of spec numbers. You want to assume all anomalies are same.

What do 2600 joules in that Surge Guard do? Nothing useful. Do those joules protect from other anomalies? No.

Does a Surge Guard protect from reverse polarity? Protect what? Reverse polarity does not harm appliances. Polarity is a human safety function. So what is being protected?

Does it protect from phase variation, frequency variation, excessive harmonics, or EMC/EMI? Apparently not. Is that protection required? Your answer should include numbers. Since each potential threat must be defined BEFORE recommending any solution. And each discussed separately.

Does it protect from an open safety ground? Apparently not even though that is a too common anomaly in campgrounds. It really should detect that anomaly.

Does it protect from brownouts? Say so with numbers. Is that protection necessary? If making conclusions from subjective reasoning, then tell us why. Remember to list what in an RV does and does not need for protection.

Of course 2600 joules says nothing about these other anomalies. What numbers exist so that one can make a conclusion?

Long before demanding a solution or being indignant, first define each threat. Which anomalies require effective protection? Tell us which anomalies are of concern in a campground - with numbers. Only then can a solution be discussed.

Mile_High
Explorer
Explorer
westom wrote:
Mile High wrote:
I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending.
Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. If difficult, best is to ask why rather than post an emotion.

Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why is that difficult?

That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Specification numbers say so. Why is that hard?

Effective protector (a completely different device that unfortunately shares a same name) works because it is earthed. That should be obvious using concepts originally taught in elementary school science.

So which sentence is a challenge? You never said.
No need to get condescending - you're already talking down to me, but you haven't "dummied" it up near enough yet. Perhaps I need to just try to pull it out of you:

Are you saying that NONE of these devices we are discussing are any more effective than a home strip surge suppressor because we don't have an effective ground within 10'?

Are you suggesting we don't bother?

Are you suggesting we drive in a ground rod with 10' and bond the rig?

Are you focused on surge, and ignoring the other benefits of these systems such as detecting polarity, missing neutral, etc?

Just a simple thumbs up or down will work 🙂
2013 Winnebago Itasca Meridian 42E
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara Towed

westom
Explorer
Explorer
Jim Norman wrote:
OK, So am I to understand that the two SurgeGuard brand units I have, the built in unit as well as the plug in unit are essentially useless as surge protectors?
First, let's define a word 'surge'. It is subjective. So a low voltage is a surge. Frequency variation is a surge. Reverse polarity is a surge. Too much current and resulting low voltage from a USB port is a surge.

This will discuss a potentially destructive surge that is a current transient - typically in microseconds.

Effective surge protection will always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? World's best protector is ineffective IF it does not make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground. Earth ground does not exist in any receptacle. Earth ground is typically in a pole.

At home, best protection for TV cable is a hardwire (installed for free) that connects that coax cable low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. No protector required for best protection.

Phone line cannot connect direct to earth. So your telco installs and earths a protector. Protector is only doing what the above hardwire does better. Connects a surge low impedance to earth.

Protection for an RV is simalar. If a protector connects low impedance to a pole, then that protector can connect hundreds of thousands of joules to dissipate harmlessly in earth. Then effective protection exists.

Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Any protector is only as effective as its earth ground - an item that does the protection.

Jim_Norman
Explorer
Explorer
westom wrote:
Mile High wrote:
I for one don't understand a **** thing you are saying or recommending.
Surge Guard will 'absorb' 870 joules and not more than 1750 joules. If difficult, best is to ask why rather than post an emotion.

Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Why is that difficult?

That Surge Guard is electrically similar to other tiny power strip protectors. Specification numbers say so. Why is that hard?

Effective protector (a completely different device that unfortunately shares a same name) works because it is earthed. That should be obvious using concepts originally taught in elementary school science.

So which sentence is a challenge? You never said.



OK, So am I to understand that the two SurgeGuard brand units I have, the built in unit as well as the plug in unit are essentially useless as surge protectors? Or are they only useless in the rare case of a lightning strike? You keep saying that there units are only about as good as a cheap plug in strip so what do you recommend and use?
2016 Tiffin Allegro Red 38QBA
2008 Jeep Liberty (aka FireToad)