Home base TV Antenna

[philh]

Antenna is 25' above the ground. Running into difficulty getting a consistent signal to any of the 3 TVs. Long range direction VHF/UHF antenna with a preamp.

Original higher cost preamp just didn't work well at all. Replaced it with a cheap unit, and had a substantial improvement... but still run into complete channel loss or bad pixelation.

Bed is directly below the antenna, about 20' below it. One channel in particular, I get out of bed, signal is lost. Get back in bed, signal comes back. High quality, albeit too long, RG6 cables. To make it even more fun, if it's pixelating too much, I stretch my arm out perpendicular to my body, signal improves, pull my arm back signal gets worse.

Something in the park model is affecting the reception. The really odd part, that my body's position affects the antenna 20' above me.

Suggestions?

[Tom_M1]

According to a couple tower locator sites the closest TV transmitters are located Northeast of Belleville about 25 miles away in the Detroit area. Only the FOX affiliate is broadcasting VHF on RF channel 7.

In the US, about 25% of TV stations are now broadcasting on the VHF band, mostly on VHF-Hi (ch 7 to 36). Only a handful are broadcasting on VHF-Lo (ch 2 to 6).

Multipath (ghosting in the analog days) can be a big problem for digital. This can be caused by signals being reflected off buildings, towers, trees or terrain. You need to point your antenna so it's receiving the strongest signal. One of your TVs may have a menu choice that displays signal strength. If not, the Winegard Sensar Pro is a combination signal strength meter and adjustable amplifier that will display signal level.

Here's a couple tower locator sites:
https://otadtv.com/tvtower/index.html
https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps

Winegard Sensar Pro:
https://winegard.com/industry/recreational-vehicle-rv/hdtv-digital-antennas/sensar-rv/sensarpro-whit...

[philh]

Thank your for all the responses.

Broadcast stations are a mix of UHV and VHF, furthest stations I'm trying to receive is about 50 miles. Not that far for the monster antenna. Also had an omni directional uhf antenna that didn't pick up much of anything

Below is the sequence from antenna to living room TV. It was interesting that removing the splitter had zero impact on signal, which shocked me.

Channel Master advantage 100 antenna
75 ohm adapter (changed out once)
short cable (18"?)
preamp (originally channel master switched out for cheap RCA, which actually improved the signal)
100' higher quality RG6 (replaced 100' channel master cable)run in crawl space
amp power supply
Short cable to 3 way splitter (splitter replaced twice, newest one is channel master passive which will pass through preamp power, also had a powered splitter, but it didn't seem to work at all)
12' cable connected to wall outlet
3' cable from wall outlet to TIVO

Kitchen TV, also 12 ft cable from splitter

Bedroom TV 50' cable from splitter to park model drop to wall outlet
3' lead to TV

All TV's react the same way, i.e. They all suffer the same amount of pixelation. I'd love to say the bedroom drop had an issue, especially since my movement in the bedroom affects ALL TV's, but I bypassed the splitter and it didn't improve the signal.

I could connect the bedroom TV to the antenna, bypassing the splitter and the rest of the cables.

I could also undertake making my own cables, which would greatly cut cable lengths.

Friend had an antenna professionally installed, and they put power source at both TV's which didn't make sense to me, but I could put the power source at the living room TIVO.

General consensus is I have a bad cable SOMEWHERE. Given that the 100' cable was changed and no change, thinking it has to be in one of the shorter leads.

Don't really want to go any higher. 25' should be high enough.
Could move the antenna, which would shorten leads considerably, but securing antenna would be more difficult. Right now I'm secured at park model fascia at roof peak and base attached to concrete.

Cell based modem is completely disconnected now, so that wasn't it.

My fear right now, it's between the splitter and living room TV, but when this room was built, the cable was installed and secured in the wall cavity making it a bit more challenging to replace.

One other issue, that I believe is another symptom, in hot sun, signal reception is worse.

[Gdetrailer]

dieseltruckdriver wrote:
I know we should probably take this to a new post, but still, wa8yxm is correct. I actually just checked my 5er tv since I am in it, and it does indeed give the channel number.

In case anyone is still reading this and wondering what Gdetrailer means, I have "channel 6-1" on currently, but the actual physical channel is 29, so it is UHF even though looking at the displayed channel it would seem to be a VHF channel.

In other words, your 6-1 is not transmitting on the same frequency as it did when it was analog channel 6 which was in VHF channels.

Move to a different broadcast market and that 6-1 could be actually transmitting on the old analog Channel 6 frequency..

Per HERE

"The real frequency assignments and the virtual channel on-screen display on the TV is the most confusing issue pertaining to the digital transition. The 2.1 virtual channel number no longer has anything to do with the real channel frequency in use to broadcast the signal. The real channel 33 broadcast frequency (2.1 in NYC) can be coded so the TV's on-screen channel number can display any virtual channel number from 2.1 to 69.1. The 2.1 or any virtual channel on-screen display is no longer a frequency it's a recognition number so the viewer can identify what channel they're viewing. In some cases the virtual number and the real channel frequency are the same. For an example in NYC channels 11.1 CW and 13.1 PBS have both the real and virtual channels the same. Channel 11 broadcast on real channel frequency 11 and displays 11.1 and 13 does the same broadcasts on 13 and displays 13.1 but all other stations broadcast on one frequency and display another ."

So, in reality, you cannot depend on the tuner channel number to determine actual broadcast channel frequency. There is no way to know if the channel is UHF or VHF unless you search the Internet which is why wa8ym's advice is not exactly realistic troubleshooting for the OPs situation.

As far as determining the "type" of antenna to use, yes wa8yxm's advice is spot on, but that isn't the OPs issue right now.

Besides, because many broadcast markets have been repacked multiple times and FCC has opened up VHF Lo (2-6) to broadcasters to use it makes zero sense to buy a UHF only antenna and in many markets you will be disappointed with your results using a compact UHF only antenna to pick up the stations that moved back to VHF Lo/Hi bands.

The smartest thing to do is to buy a VHF/UHF antenna and don't sucked into the small compact UHF only antenna marketing double speak..

That is the reason I never changed my VHF low/Hi/UHF combo antenna to a UHF only antenna.. And it was a very good move on my part since most of my local broadcasters moved back to VHF Lo and VHF Hi. Takes much less power to transmit further on VHF low than it does for VHF Hi or UHF and broadcasters save money on costs of equipment and power bills..

But once again, the issue the OP is having is not in antenna selection, it is a wiring problem, in reality unless you are in deep fringe viewing area even a metal clothes hanger connected to the TV should pick up a few stations..

[dieseltruckdriv]

I know we should probably take this to a new post, but still, wa8yxm is correct. I actually just checked my 5er tv since I am in it, and it does indeed give the channel number.

In case anyone is still reading this and wondering what Gdetrailer means, I have "channel 6-1" on currently, but the actual physical channel is 29, so it is UHF even though looking at the displayed channel it would seem to be a VHF channel.

[Gdetrailer]

dieseltruckdriver wrote:


WA8YXMs advice was actually spot on. Notice he said "check what channels they actually broadcast on". Fellow ham here. 😉

After four paragraphs of Gdetrailer explaining why WA8YXM was correct, I also agree that it seems to be a wiring issue, and I think it was explained very well. I would guess a splitter in the wrong spot also.

Edited to add, very nice visual explanation!

It should be noted that ATSC TV tuners do not give the actual channel frequency that is being used, only the virtual channel, so "spot checking" what the actual frequency is being used via TV tuner is not a viable option.

Instead you have to search the wobbly web to find a website which lists the broadcasters in your TV market with not only their virtual channel but their actual broadcast frequency. Sounds simple but in reality, not as simple as it sounds. You also have to find a current up to date listing, not all websites are current and up to date..

As a "Ham" myself, it is very easy to forget that not everyone has the same ability to go outside the box and one must consider breaking complex info into much smaller and easier to understand chunks.

[dieseltruckdriv]

Gdetrailer wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:
No reason to replace the antenna but you might want to check what channels they actually broadcast on (Ask your television it knows, it's in the menus but do to different brands I can't tell you the path as well. I have 3 TV's here adn they are all different) But look for manual add of channel. Tune to a channel then go to that menu options) numbers less than 13 keep your antenna

Numbers highers only you can go to a smaller UHF only with higher gain.

Where I am there are still VHF carriers

:R

"Digital" OTA AKA ATSC does not work like that.

ATSC uses what is called "virtual channel numbers" which can be "assigned" to any of the currently allowed TV broadcast band within the band plan.

SEE HERE

"virtual channel

A virtual channel is the designation, usually a number, that is recognized by the user as the single entity that will provide access to an analog TV program or a set of one or more digital elementary streams. It is called “virtual” because its identification (name and number) may be defined independently from its physical location. Examples of virtual channels are: digital radio (audio only), a typical analog TV channel, a typical digital TV channel (composed of one audio and one video stream), multi-visual digital channels (composed of several video streams and one or more audio tracks), or a data broadcast channel (composed of one or more data streams). In the case of an analog TV channel, the virtual channel designation will link to a specific physical transmission channel. In the case of a digital TV channel, the virtual channel designation will link both to the physical transmission channel and to the particular video and audio streams within that physical transmission channel."

ATSC Channel 2-13 can be anywhere, it can be broadcast on UHF frequencies and the tuner will find it and as long as the broadcaster has done their job correctly the tuner will know that it is channel 2-13.

Because many TV markets have "branded" their identification by their original analog TV channel number they were assigned to, it was decided in order to allow the broadcasters to continue that time honored tradition to use a virtual channel number assignment system.

This also made the analog to digital changeover to be as seamless as possible without the need to go off the air for days or even months while all their analog equipment was being removed and new digital equipment installed.

OP has a wiring issue, first of all, with an outdoor antenna with a preamp should be able to drive at least one TV without the movement of a person inside the building affecting reception.

OP states they have three TVs, that also means they have a splitter which just plain kills the fragile ATSC signal.

If the OP has an antenna mounted preamp and inserted the splitter in the wrong place that also will kill the signal.. Antenna mounted preamps require a voltage to be inserted into the coax that leads to the antenna preamp. Placing a splitter in between the power injector and the antenna preamp is a no no and will kill all signal from the antenna.

Splitters must be inserted on the TV side of the power injector.

Passive splitters represent a huge loss of signal strength, a two way splitter is 3.5 DB of loss to both sets, a 3way splitter will have one port with 3.5DB loss and two ports of 7 DB loss. A four way passive splitter will have 4 ports with 7 DB loss..

With ATSC, any and every inserted loss can easily kill enough signal to make other RFI in the building easily "swamp out" the little bit of signal that may be on the center of the coax.

LED lights, RV power converter, computers, cell phones, cell phone chargers and much more can generate a considerable amount of RFI..

Something else which is why I mentioned the OP needs to list makes and models of the preamp and antenna.. If they are using a indoor only preamp, I have never had much luck with those on outdoor antennas.. They are just amplifying the RFI noise inside the building.. One needs to use a two piece antenna preamp which uses a antenna mounted preamp and a indoor power injector..

As they say, "garbage in, much louder garbage out", have to put the preamp where it has the best chance of not amplifying the RFI inside the building.

WA8YXMs advice was actually spot on. Notice he said "check what channels they actually broadcast on". Fellow ham here. 😉

After four paragraphs of Gdetrailer explaining why WA8YXM was correct, I also agree that it seems to be a wiring issue, and I think it was explained very well. I would guess a splitter in the wrong spot also.

Edited to add, very nice visual explanation!

[Gdetrailer]

For clarity sake, here is a diagram of how to wire..



Here is how to not wire..

[Gdetrailer]

wa8yxm wrote:
No reason to replace the antenna but you might want to check what channels they actually broadcast on (Ask your television it knows, it's in the menus but do to different brands I can't tell you the path as well. I have 3 TV's here adn they are all different) But look for manual add of channel. Tune to a channel then go to that menu options) numbers less than 13 keep your antenna

Numbers highers only you can go to a smaller UHF only with higher gain.

Where I am there are still VHF carriers

:R

"Digital" OTA AKA ATSC does not work like that.

ATSC uses what is called "virtual channel numbers" which can be "assigned" to any of the currently allowed TV broadcast band within the band plan.

SEE HERE

"virtual channel

A virtual channel is the designation, usually a number, that is recognized by the user as the single entity that will provide access to an analog TV program or a set of one or more digital elementary streams. It is called “virtual” because its identification (name and number) may be defined independently from its physical location. Examples of virtual channels are: digital radio (audio only), a typical analog TV channel, a typical digital TV channel (composed of one audio and one video stream), multi-visual digital channels (composed of several video streams and one or more audio tracks), or a data broadcast channel (composed of one or more data streams). In the case of an analog TV channel, the virtual channel designation will link to a specific physical transmission channel. In the case of a digital TV channel, the virtual channel designation will link both to the physical transmission channel and to the particular video and audio streams within that physical transmission channel."

ATSC Channel 2-13 can be anywhere, it can be broadcast on UHF frequencies and the tuner will find it and as long as the broadcaster has done their job correctly the tuner will know that it is channel 2-13.

Because many TV markets have "branded" their identification by their original analog TV channel number they were assigned to, it was decided in order to allow the broadcasters to continue that time honored tradition to use a virtual channel number assignment system.

This also made the analog to digital changeover to be as seamless as possible without the need to go off the air for days or even months while all their analog equipment was being removed and new digital equipment installed.

OP has a wiring issue, first of all, with an outdoor antenna with a preamp should be able to drive at least one TV without the movement of a person inside the building affecting reception.

OP states they have three TVs, that also means they have a splitter which just plain kills the fragile ATSC signal.

If the OP has an antenna mounted preamp and inserted the splitter in the wrong place that also will kill the signal.. Antenna mounted preamps require a voltage to be inserted into the coax that leads to the antenna preamp. Placing a splitter in between the power injector and the antenna preamp is a no no and will kill all signal from the antenna.

Splitters must be inserted on the TV side of the power injector.

Passive splitters represent a huge loss of signal strength, a two way splitter is 3.5 DB of loss to both sets, a 3way splitter will have one port with 3.5DB loss and two ports of 7 DB loss. A four way passive splitter will have 4 ports with 7 DB loss..

With ATSC, any and every inserted loss can easily kill enough signal to make other RFI in the building easily "swamp out" the little bit of signal that may be on the center of the coax.

LED lights, RV power converter, computers, cell phones, cell phone chargers and much more can generate a considerable amount of RFI..

Something else which is why I mentioned the OP needs to list makes and models of the preamp and antenna.. If they are using a indoor only preamp, I have never had much luck with those on outdoor antennas.. They are just amplifying the RFI noise inside the building.. One needs to use a two piece antenna preamp which uses a antenna mounted preamp and a indoor power injector..

As they say, "garbage in, much louder garbage out", have to put the preamp where it has the best chance of not amplifying the RFI inside the building.

[wa8yxm]

No reason to replace the antenna but you might want to check what channels they actually broadcast on (Ask your television it knows, it's in the menus but do to different brands I can't tell you the path as well. I have 3 TV's here adn they are all different) But look for manual add of channel. Tune to a channel then go to that menu options) numbers less than 13 keep your antenna

Numbers highers only you can go to a smaller UHF only with higher gain.

Where I am there are still VHF carriers

[theoldwizard1]

Gdetrailer wrote:
Broken, damaged, incomplete connection on the coax is most likely your issue.

Concur !
Bottom line, replace the cable, end to end, with her RG6. Spend the money and buy a "press on" cable end tool. Snap-N-Seal are the connectors that the professionals use. Also a new 75 ohm to 300 ohm transformer at the antenna.

While you are at it, it is probably time to replace your antenna. Most TV station only broadcast on UHF. Check on Antenna web.org

Get a combination amplifier splitter

[Gdetrailer]

Broken, damaged, incomplete connection on the coax is most likely your issue.

Any half decent wire/connection along with antenna that far away, there should be zero affect on your reception when you move about inside your home.

To me, it really sounds like your outdoor antenna is not connected for all intents and purposes and the coax inside your home is actually acting as the antenna..

Perhaps state exactly how the wiring is run, is there any barrel connectors, switches, splitters, wall outlets between the TV and antenna?

Additionally list the make and model of the antenna preamp and the antenna while you are at it..

With proper connection terminations and good quality RG6 20 ft of coax is nothing.. I have nearly 50ft of coax from my antenna going into my basement and loops into the living room at the far end of the house to the power injector for the outdoor preamp, then runs back into the basement into a amplified 8 way coupler (not a passive splitter)..

Body movements inside the house do not bother any of my channels..