Laptop -- Charging Brick -- Surge protector ???

[TenOC]

When my laptop is plugged into 110 volts and charging does the charging brick that changes the AC to DC provide protection against power surges and spikes?

Should I still have a surge suppressor in line with the charging brick? I have been told that most of the surge suppressors do not protect very well.

Since I only camp a few time a year, I do not want to invest into an expensive $$$ Surge Guard Automatic Transfer Switch.

[westom]

time2roll wrote:
I would trust the power brick to isolate the computer in most conditions.

'Dirty' UPS power, that can be problematic to so many household appliances, is perfectly ideal to computers. Computers are so more robust due to what is inside its power brick or PSU.

Campgrounds suffer anomalies that rarely exist in homes. So completely different devices (called surge protectors) are recommended. Progressive is a very popular name.

Homes need protection from anomalies that can overwhelm that power brick. These occur maybe once every seven years. Informed homeowners spend about $1 per appliance for a well proven 'whole house' solution. Then protection is good and functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. To even protect his near zero joule, plug-in protectors and to protect even tinier protection inside a UPS.

That 'whole house' solution does not address completely different anomalies that typically exist in a campground. Unfortunately too many think subjectively. As if all surges are same. As if one magic box protects from all.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

If I wanted massive J number potential I would install GSD. But this isn't about that. Lightning surge strike.

0? joules=watts?seconds=amps2?ohms?seconds

This is about longevity of the protection device itself. I got chewed on multiple times for being too technical on this site. I simplify and omit formula and calculations and I get criticized.

I find ROTE mongers like yourself to never question rationale of circuit design but jump up and down when discipline is translated into fundamental non technical basics.

My systems work. What you say you represent you do not. Virtually EVERY non functioning battery charger I dissect, virtually every microwave control board has one hundred percent dead MOVS. Three inverter model Panasonic control boards fail an average of three months use. The fourth is retrofitted before installation. Let's see, that was in 2006.

Proof is not in meeting theory. Proof is in reaching a goal. My goal is to provide a device with suppressor lifespan adequate capacity. Or do you argue increased MOV capacity has no effect on MOV array lifespan under inordinately high values of 1-3 ms duration >500 v events?

Thought so.

Placement of the device(s) is as important as aggregate totalization of components. My first choice is at point of origin of power to the system to be protected. An idea can be gained of my theory by substitution of an isolation transformer which is a definite albeit expensive alternative. But it proved the point beyond argument. High db isolation, elimination of errant waveform THD and finally voltage correction is adequately achieved by a 3Kw Sola ferroresonant device, coupled to individual isolation transformers. That is what I have in my stick and brick umbilical home. But I am not at home. When someone brings a near new OEM protected appliance and the control circuit is dead because of no longer operative MOVs do I recommend a protection device incorporating sixty cents worth of components? It has to work, right because it is "factory" engineered. All carefully calculated. Not.

[time2roll]

I would trust the power brick to isolate the computer in most conditions.
Use the same protection as you do at home.

[westom]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Care to argue with my Tektronix oscilloscope? Or with ultra sensitive and precise "Rice Grain Fuses"?

Yes I do. Now with the scope. With the human trying to make conclusions only from wild speculation. A little electrical knowledge is insufficient. If you really knew this stuff, then I am reading many technical numbers in your every post. I read none because you do not have an engineers attitude and insufficient electrical knowledge. You do not even read specifications.

Tell us how your protector will 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? Why do you ignore that and every other number? There it is. Effective protection (that a UPS is supposed to do) means hundreds of thousands of joules cause no damage - even to a protector.

Do you know what impedance is? Do you know what equipotential is? Do you know why a connection to earth is so critical? Little hint. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Can you at least address that one number - and stop being subjective?

If a protector anywhere in the world fails in a year, then it was sold to a naive consumer. The informed properly earth 'whole house' protection to not fail after many decades and many direct lightning strikes. It comes with numbers that say why.

Numbers for the laptop says its internal UPS does as much or more than an external UPS. Chances are a surge that might destroy a protector (that has more joules than the UPS) will also be converted by the laptop's brick into rock stable, low DC voltage to safely power semiconductors.

If you know that UPS outputs a pure sine wave, then a manufacturer specification is provided to define it. Why not one number (ie %THD)? Because we should believe you? Because subjective recommendations are always honest? What kind of engineering attitude is that?

An AC utility demonstrates what UPS power really looks like. Pictured is the transition from cleaner AC power to UPS battery backup power:
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips
Then selected Tech Tip 3.

That is about protecting appliances inside structures. This is a discussion about protecting from something completely different in campgrounds - also called a surge.

The informed install something completely different, called a surge protector, from companies highly regarded for their effective products. Such as Progressive. That highly regarded product protects from completely different anomalies so often found in campgrounds. What you recommend is already made irrelevant by what is inside that laptop and its power brick.

We could discuss those numbers. But why bother. Apparently subjective claims are all anyone needs to prove a fact?

BTW, 120 degrees is only destructive when one fears from a feeling or because hearsay said so. That power brick that you 'feel' (subjectively) is too hot is actually just fine even in a 100 degree F room. If in doubt, then go read numbers from datasheets to first learn why.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Care to argue with my Tektronix oscilloscope? Or with ultra sensitive and precise "Rice Grain Fuses"? I do not see any of this in a marketed "surge protector". Price the fuses and you will see why. Individual component fusing is the only way to eliminate fires.

Supposed MOV protection devices go out-of-service after about a year down here.

And TVS devices exist as a sales ploy right? No way in the world is nanosecond reaction time relevant to circuit protection. Once again, "paper-rote" is extrapolated as the only reality. I base my considerations on failure rates of electronics. With additional circuit protection they do not fail. With standard "Surge Protectors" they fail. If I had no problems with inherent device protection I would not have gone looking for an alternative. Want a carton of "inherently protected" devices? I'll ship them to you. Many hundreds of dollars worth. All with failed surface mount logic devices.

[westom]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
MOVs by themselves react too slow. By trebling and selecting "largest in class" components, I gain vastly increased lifespan of the device.

These urban myths not supported by facts with numbers promote scams. MOVs are more than fast enough. Anyone can read those datasheets rather than parrot what the technically naive promote. What causes any protector to operate slower is, for example, wire length.

Speed of an MOV varies significantly when measured adjacent to the disc verses measured 5 cm down its wire leads. Move on to relevant numbers.

If your home made protector is useful, then it is already inside all appliances. Your homemade protector will be just as ineffective as an APC or Belkin. And probably more dangerous. Fire is a serious problem with near zero joule protectors.

How many did not learn about some 15 million APCs so dangerous that APC finally admitted these must be disposed immediately. How many recommend these proetctors and do not even know about the 15 million that create fires more often? Other protectors from Belkin and others are electrically similar.

Again, numbers. How many joules will your homemade protector 'absorb'? Thousand? Protectors from that anomaly (called a surge) must safely dissipate hundreds of thousands of joules.

A 1000-2000 joule protector is a near zero joule protector. Most electronics will convert that tiny surge into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. Unfortunately too many are only educated by advertising, hearsay, and speculation. Then assume a thousand joule protector is robust. It is near zero.

Meanwhile, a surge that a power strip must magically 'block' or 'absorb' is not the surge that effective campground protectors address. So many and different anomalies are all called surges. Which one is a concern in campgrounds? Not one that is a concern to a home computer.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I looked inside a 50 dollar Belkin ulta-supe-dooper-whammy slammy-ultimate surge protector and almost died laughing. (3) 10mm MOVS.
I now build my own. I call it a SPIKE CLAMPER. 20mm MOVS L to N and L to E. (3)each
(3) 1500 watt TVS 180 volt also tripled with rice grain fuses.

MOVs by themselves react too slow. By trebling and selecting "largest in class" components, I gain vastly increased lifespan of the device.

[westom]

alexxx84962 wrote:
I purchased APC 11-Outlet Surge Protector for a friend of mine, who was not using any line protection for a new computer build. It cost me less than $30.
And need to say, this is the best one in terms of quality and function.

A $5 power strip without any protector parts would have same quality and function. And would not create a risk of fire.

Where is one fact that says it does effective surge protection? None stated because none exists. Not even one spec number. And that is the point. Scams are that easily promoted when numbers are ignored.

What does it do to protect 'at risk' items from potentially harmful anomalies including low voltage, reverse polarity, floating neutral, high voltage, and missing safety ground?

[alexxx84962]

I purchased APC 11-Outlet Surge Protector for a friend of mine, who was not using any line protection for a new computer build. It cost me less than $30.
And need to say, this is the best one in terms of quality and function.
Materials are solid and unit well designed.
After hooking everything up and testing it all ours worries subsided. This machine allowed to pass 40mbps through it reliably. The only downside is the network only supports 100mbps (although 1Gbps might work)..
***Link Removed***

[MEXICOWANDERER]

If you want to do something kind, fuss around a bit to allow better convection cooling of the switched power supply "brick". When I am watching video the brick may go to 120F. Too hot for me...

A tiny fan fixes that.

[westom]

TenOC wrote:
I thought that a UPS is simply a battery that supplies power if the main 110 volts goes out. It is to give you time to save your work so you do not lose it due to a power failure.

You are completely correct. Many have been told hearsay, speculation, advertising and other myths. They did not first demand spec numbers. No specification is a first indication of junk science reasoning.

Power brick contains robust protection - superior to what any power strip protector or UPS claims. Numbers. How many joules does a power strip claim to absorb? Hundreds? Thousands? That is near zero joules. Electronics will routinely convert those joules into rock stable, low DC voltage to safely power semiconductors.

How many joules does a UPS claim to absorb? Even less. Hundreds? Where is the protection?

Anyone in a first year EE course learns why that battery does not absorbs surges like a capacitor. To a surge current, that battery is electrically equivalent to wire. It simply gives a surge more paths destructively into attached appliances. Just another example of so many recommendations that violate even the most basic electrical concepts.

The word surge applies to so many completely different and unrelated anomalies. Which anomaly concerns your? Power factor, EMC/EMI, floating neutral, frequency variation, low voltage, open safety ground, blackout, high voltage, no earth ground, brownout (sag), or microsecond current spike? Subjective discussions (without numbers) are how junk science and urban myths get created. All are subjectively described by so many as a surge. Instead move on to which threats are actually a concern.

Campground power often requires protection from brownouts, floating neutral, high voltage, and open safety ground. A surge protector for campgrounds must address those anomalies. Some highly recommended manufacturers should appear - to address those issues.

Computers must work just fine on any voltage that dims incandescent bulbs to 50% intensity or doubles intensity. Your laptop must be even more robust. It must be perfectly happy when 120 volts rises to above 265 volts. Therein lies one example of surge protection denied by others and that exists in all laptop power bricks.

At greater risk items include motorized appliances. So that surge protector must protect from low voltages and brownouts - to protect those more 'at risk' appliances.

Again, power strip or UPS does not even claim to protect hardware - as so many want to believe. 1000-2000 joules is near zero protection. Large enough to claim 100% protection in subjective sales brochures.

Power brick already has robust protection. To say more, then each anomaly must be discussed separately. Soundbyte or two paragraph posts are best ignored; probably outright lies or created by victims of myths, hearsay, and advertising. Every useful recommendation also includes reasons why and with numbers.

[garry1p]

If you are worried about it buy a single outlet surge protector very cheap insurance.

I would go one step further and buy a surge protected power strip you can use the multiple outlets for printer, modem or router protection.

Both use MOV's that protect from voltage spikes higher the joules the higher the protection. Jules is normally printed on the power strip.

Between 1,000-2,000 joules protect:

Laptop/Notebook
Tablet
Router
Printer
Power Tools

[road-runner]

I'm surprised anybody can answer "yes" or "no" without specs or testing to back up the answer.

[ScottG]

steveh27 wrote:
I no longer leave the dead battery in my laptop, but I do have a single plug surge protector.

But if you leave the battery plugged in it makes a great leg warmer!
I guess that's more helpful in the winter :B