Another reason NOT to use the "Water Thief"

[Desert_Captain]

This was posted at the USFS Windy Hill CG at Roosevelt Lake but I have seen similar postings at a number of USFS CG's through the southwest. If a CG only has a few spigots scattered around, often without threads you might want to check the bulletin board before hooking up as it can and often will get you ejected from the campground. You really should not be using the water thief (the name says it all).



While this posting addresses health issues many of the more remote campgrounds also have very limited supplies of fresh water and the spigots were never intended for mass consumption by large RV's.

:C

[Community Alumni]

Fiverwheel wrote:
Reading that sign I wouldn't hesitate to fill my water tank with a water thief. What I think they have in mind is staying connected to the spigot.

By connecting to the faucet you would be breaking the law and possibly causing a cross contamination of the water supply.

Here is how it can and does happen. So you hook up and start flowing water but unknown to you so do a few other folks, maybe one or two hooked to the faucet and others just getting a drink. All that flow at other faucets may cause a low pressure or even a negative pressure at your faucet, especially if you are at the top of the run, if a negative pressure situation happens the water in your hose may flow back into the water system. Now think about how many postings here about people using the drinking water hose to flush there black tanks or just the ones you have seen.

The idea of the sign is to prevent cross contamination not to stop volume.

JimR

[wintersun]

In the first place it mentions "hydrants" which are what one attaches a fire hose to with the right connector. It is not a hose bib or faucet which is what a garden hose would be connected to for water.

It is laughable to worry about water in Arizona with all the uncontrolled and unregulated ground water pumping that is going on day after day and year after year. The Intel chip plant in Chandler uses more than a million gallons of water a day when it is operating. And they got tax breaks and cash from the state to locate their water intensive fab in the state.

[Lantley]

dewey02 wrote:

Lantley wrote:
I don't doubt what your saying. But why is there no sign restricting/limiting the quantity of water be consumed? I could easily fill my 80 gallon tank using buckets if I had to.
I don't need to connect a hose to use lots of water.

Because most people won't do what you do, and campgrounds are designed and operated on the basis of what most people will do in a certain situation.
One thing we tried to avoid are negative signs that say "Welcome to your National Forests" followed by a long list of rules that say don't do this, don't do that, don't don't do that, etc. It isn't very inviting or friendly. Much better to design things that naturally direct the type of behavior that is expected. Not always successful at that, and for example, the occasional person filling a 100 gallon RV tank won't kill the system, but lots of people doing it lots of times just might.
You might be surprised at the number of things designed into campgrounds to influence behavior without posting signs everywhere.

Makes sense. But a little honesty might go long way. The newer rigs have pump settings that allow the RV to suck water out of a bucket without a lot of effort. If the sign told me not too use too much water I would adhere to it.
However if the sign tries to discourage me via psychology and doesn't really state the issue I would likely fill my tanks.
A straight forward sign stating the issue may help with compliance.
The no connecting a hose sign would not stop me but a do not use too much water sign would.

[path1]

Another reason NOT to use the "Water Thief"

What are other reasons for not using a "Water Thief"?



Seams to me getting the water to the surface with solar is problem.


Why didn't they take out the solar and put in a hand pump, problem solved.

[Desert_Captain]

jacksonr wrote:
Question for the Desert Captain since I also camp often at Windy Hill (in fact, going Wed). How do you plan on getting your water there? Hauling it from Tucson (like I would have to), waiting to begin your trip until Sat or Sun when the fill station in Cholla might be open, or an alternate suggestion? If the fill station is like the dump station at Cholla it is a bit hit and miss if forest service sticks to schedule.

Yes, the dump/fill stations out there are very much hit or miss but I would not let water availability dictate when I left for a trip. Our 24' C has a 40 gallon fresh water tank and I usually fill it from 3/4 to full up which will last us a week at Roosevelt Lake and the 250-340# is of no consequence. Since the CG has flush toilets and hot showers we don't use all that much water while we are there.

We also have a couple of 6 gallon Wally World blue jugs which can be filled from the CG spigots. We put 3 or 4 gallons in each and set them on the table for washing up, rinsing dishes etc. I never go anywhere without at least half a tank of fresh so bumping that up to 3/4 or more is not a problem.

We've been to CG's that always have water only to find their pump was down or some other problem arose so we never let ourselves get caught short. We just spent 3 days there, left home with 3/4 of a tank (30 gallons), and came home with 15-20. Just used one blue jug and it was still half full when we left this morning.

:C

[dave54]

DutchmenSport wrote:
... But ... I made one of my own by taking a garden hose and cutting off the end. The hose end is large enough to fit over most unthreaded spigots...

I made one that fits a 1" pipe from a bicycle inner tube, 2 hose clamps, and garden hose fitting.

[jacksonr]

Question for the Desert Captain since I also camp often at Windy Hill (in fact, going Wed). How do you plan on getting your water there? Hauling it from Tucson (like I would have to), waiting to begin your trip until Sat or Sun when the fill station in Cholla might be open, or an alternate suggestion? If the fill station is like the dump station at Cholla it is a bit hit and miss if forest service sticks to schedule.

[rockhillmanor]

The rules have gotten ridiculous and everyone is just paralyzed by all of the environmental rulings. Typical environmental study.....one person gets sick from a possible backflow contamination, so they make the entire US put on back flow eliminators......This country has lost the ability to apply common sense.

x2
They don't come cheap either.
A regular frost free water pump for my horse barn costs 65.00. Been buying and using them for years. They don't freeze and can be used year round. Yes they siphon back down. For 30 years No one including my horses has ever died from drinking the water from the pump.

Fast forward:
Built a new house and barn. Bought my 65.00 water pump and put it in myself........inspector for barn said NOT!

I had to buy a frost free anti-syphon pump at the cost of 1,200 AND had to be install by a cert well guy.
AND? The darn thing froze solid the first winter.:R

[dewey02]

Lantley wrote:
I don't doubt what your saying. But why is there no sign restricting/limiting the quantity of water be consumed? I could easily fill my 80 gallon tank using buckets if I had to.
I don't need to connect a hose to use lots of water.

Because most people won't do what you do, and campgrounds are designed and operated on the basis of what most people will do in a certain situation.
One thing we tried to avoid are negative signs that say "Welcome to your National Forests" followed by a long list of rules that say don't do this, don't do that, don't don't do that, etc. It isn't very inviting or friendly. Much better to design things that naturally direct the type of behavior that is expected. Not always successful at that, and for example, the occasional person filling a 100 gallon RV tank won't kill the system, but lots of people doing it lots of times just might.
You might be surprised at the number of things designed into campgrounds to influence behavior without posting signs everywhere.

[Lantley]

NJRVer wrote:

dewey02 wrote:

D & M wrote:
"Another reason"? I didn't know there was any reason. Please enlighten us.

As a retired USFS program manager for 30+ campgrounds, I can say that a primary reason is because the well and pump system (in our case, it was solar driven pumps) have a low capacity, and the storage tank at each well house was 100-200 gallons. A good sized rig could empty that out in a flash, and it would take most of the day to refill with the slow capacity solar pumps. This would mean that those who came after you would have limited amounts, or no water for a considerable time.

Thanks for that inside info.

I don't doubt what your saying. But why is there no sign restricting/limiting the quantity of water be consumed? I could easily fill my 80 gallon tank using buckets if I had to.
I don't need to connect a hose to use lots of water.

[dewey02]

Lantley wrote:

TechWriter wrote:

Desert Captain wrote:
IMHO: The water thief is nothing more than a sleazy way to get around the rules(that just apply to other people).

I'm not sure why this is such a cause celebre with you, but I typically use my water thief when someone has busted off the head from a fresh water fill line. (A water source intended to fill RV water tanks.)

However, when I fill my 100 gal RV water tank, if it's a choice between lifting 20, 5 gal buckets or temporarily connecting a water thief from a non-threaded connection -- I'm using my water thief.

I agree if there is a prohibition against using/filling too much water the sign needs to state it. I could fill my tank from buckets or I could use the water thief.
If water thieves are prohibited than one can just fill via buckets. However that doesn't resolve the consumption issue,if that is truly the problem.

It certainly addresses the consumption issue. By not making it easy, the CG is trying to dissuade people from filling 100 gallons at once. It is relatively easy to have the hose fill your tank. But lifting a 5 gallon bucket up to chest height about 20 times is not so easy. Most folks would put in less water via the latter vs the former.

[NJRVer]

dewey02 wrote:

D & M wrote:
"Another reason"? I didn't know there was any reason. Please enlighten us.

As a retired USFS program manager for 30+ campgrounds, I can say that a primary reason is because the well and pump system (in our case, it was solar driven pumps) have a low capacity, and the storage tank at each well house was 100-200 gallons. A good sized rig could empty that out in a flash, and it would take most of the day to refill with the slow capacity solar pumps. This would mean that those who came after you would have limited amounts, or no water for a considerable time.

Thanks for that inside info.

[DutchmenSport]

"Water Thief"? I had to look that up to see what it was. Never heard that term before. But ... I made one of my own by taking a garden hose and cutting off the end. The hose end is large enough to fit over most unthreaded spigots. Well, in almost 30 years of camping in one form or another, and camping with my parents since 1961, I only used it once! (Oh, I'm a rebel and law breaker, aren't I). Really though, I never knew what this contraption I created was called.

[Lantley]

TechWriter wrote:

Desert Captain wrote:
IMHO: The water thief is nothing more than a sleazy way to get around the rules(that just apply to other people).

I'm not sure why this is such a cause celebre with you, but I typically use my water thief when someone has busted off the head from a fresh water fill line. (A water source intended to fill RV water tanks.)

However, when I fill my 100 gal RV water tank, if it's a choice between lifting 20, 5 gal buckets or temporarily connecting a water thief from a non-threaded connection -- I'm using my water thief.

I agree if there is a prohibition against using/filling too much water the sign needs to state it. I could fill my tank from buckets or I could use the water thief.
If water thieves are prohibited than one can just fill via buckets. However that doesn't resolve the consumption issue,if that is truly the problem.

[Dashonthedash]

There is a dump station at Rifle Gap State Park here in Colorado that has potable water outlets at each end of the island that are clearly marked "potable water" and are clearly meant for filling RVs, but use unthreaded nozzles at the end of hoses. In this case, there are no signs that prohibit filling RVs. It really makes no sense, though, because I watched another RV with an open water inlet just stick the hose end into his inlet. I had to use my water thief and managed to fill my tank, but I left the screwdriver I used to tighten the thief at the dump station.

Maybe that's why they're using the unthreaded nozzles: they're collecting screwdrivers.