CC&R dated 1973 says no RVs, trailers, boats can be stored

[kmb1966]

I am looking to purchase a home and found one that has a nice driveway on the side of the home with gates. My original plan was to park my Newmar Dutchstar motorhome on the driveway behind the gates. It fits.
However, the neighbor across the street who has a 2-story house says she would be able to see the RV from her upstairs window. She hasn't mentioned the CC&Rs, but I have a copy. The CC&R does state that there are to be no RVs, trailers, boats or similar item stored on the property. That's all it says. These CC&R's are dated 1973, and there is no active HOA anymore, but the CC&R's apparently still apply because they auto renew somehow. My issue here is that the CC&R's are old, and provide no definition for 'storage' or how long is acceptable. I suppose I will consult an attorney on this issue. It seems unfair to enforce a 40+ rule without any ability to re-vote or modernize or clarify any of the rules since there is no active HOA. Furthermore there is no way to vote for the continuance of the auto renew of the CC&R. Without any HOA, there is no way to even vote to change or consider any changes to these 1970 CC&Rs. It would seem reasonable in these modern times with so many having RV's that if the property has a driveway where the RV can be stored behind the fence/gate and cannot be seen from the street, that it should be acceptable. The fact that the lady can see the RV if she goes upstairs and looks out the window seems silly. Thoughts?
ON EDIT: I have observed 5 other houses in the neighborhood with boats, RV's, and trailers in the driveway not even behind the privacy gate/fence.

[Super_Dave]

We have neighbors that break every CC&R in the book and have been reported to the City dozens of times. There is no enforcement. They may have gotten a few letters from the City but no punitive enforcement whatsoever. (No HOA)

[ItsyRV]

KMB, they way ti works in AZ is the CC&R's are enforceable by private lawsuit if there is no HOA. Any property owner in that sub-division can sue you to enforce the CC&R. It will be up to a Judge to decide if the CC&R will be enforced as written, enforced with modifications, will not be enforced as it goes against public policy, or not enforced as it's been abandoned due to no prior enforcement of violation.

as for the dissolution of the CC&R, there usually is a mechanism in the CC&R that is also done via a private action lawsuit. It may not actual be in a section for dumping the entire CC&Rs but it may be under a section about modernizing or updating the CC&Rs.

In the absence of any specific wording in the CC&Rs about duration, it defaults under AZ law to municipal regulations. You need to find out what definition the municipality (town, city, county) has in their ordnances on issues of duration (not to be confused with where it applies on the property but only the definition of duration for "parked" or "stored") if not spelled out in the CC&R's.

You will find that many of those older CC&R's are still legal simply because nobody ever decided to take action to dissolve them. Sadly, attempting to get rid of them could backfire and result in people suing each other to enforce them.

[dedmiston]

The part about neighbors talking things out before the little things turn into big things reminds me of something that happened shortly after we moved into our house 25+ years ago.

Our lots were all bare when we moved in and we started our landscaping with hardscape and irrigation (low retaining walls, etc.).

We had just finished the retaining walls when the neighbors next door moved in. They were nice enough people, but she pointed out to me that the curve in our retaining wall crossed over into their property by a few inches. I looked closer and she was probably right. She told me that her husband was an attorney and she wanted to have him draw up some kind of release for us to sign.

I told her that's not how neighbors should get along. I told her I'd be more than happy to tear the wall out and have it rebuilt if she wanted, but neighbors don't sign agreements like that with neighbors.

She agreed and we've been best friends ever since. They've moved away and we still hang out (and she's my dentist).

Most neighbors will treat you like a human if you treat them the same way.

[Ed_Gee]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Ed_Gee wrote:
Given the additional info the OP has posted, it sounds like everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The lady merely indicated she would wishes she didn't have to see it when upstairs .... nothing else, apparently. I live in an exact same situation as the OP is looking at... a neighborhood in which the developer created CC&Rs that everyone had to sign off on when buying. Fortunately, no HOA was ever created.... and thus, many people in the neighborhood have violated those CC&Rs ... boats, RVs, ham radio antennas, even the color of the houses. There is no enforcement, and never will be. If an individual in the neighborhood wants to create a fuss over something, he would have to hire a lawyer ... and no guarantees there, too. I suspect if the OP is nice to his neighbor across the street she'll get used to it.

She voiced that she would rather the OP "store it elsewhere", meaning in an indirect way that she didn't like the idea of a RV that she could see and would rather not see it.

SHE WAS THERE FIRST.. and IF YOU "want to get along all together in the same sandbox" you ARE going to have to at least pretend to get along with HER request.

Sort of the same thing that could happen to you Ed_Gee, what if someone decided to buy and tear down several homes across from you and then build a 24/7/365 "convenience" store and gas station and point their bright parking lot lights right into your windows?

The same issue goes for someone doing something to a property across from you and parking a big RV or even a old "school bus" where you can view it every time you look out a window..

OP knows that there were some "rules" written, they may or may not be binding or valid, but obviously since they have received a copy there may be some life in them..

You can choose to ignore or just choose a place elsewhere and live in peace. It is far cheaper and less hassle to AVOID such issues before committing to buying. Once you sign the sales agreement and paperwork it is a binding contract and will cost a lot of money to put back up for sale if you find that the neighbor is not as "nice" down the road.

Again, probably making a mountain out of a mole hill. The analogy above is a very poor one ... there's a huge difference in tearing down houses and building quick stops compared to parking a vehicle next to your house. The lady merely expressed her opinion, and if one wants to base life's important decisions on a neighbor's opinion, that is his choice. Other's in this thread seem to not be reading the OP's previous comments. Yes, there are CC&Rs on paper.... but enforcement is based soley on an HOA, and there is none. No other entity or government body can mess with a private contract unless someone hires a lawyer to take a case to court. Highly unlikely in this case. Those CC&Rs are nearly 50 years old... a lot can change in a neighborhood over that time....particularly with no HOA.

It appears to me that the OP is making the right moves....say's he's going to talk with that neighbor again. Might be worth mentioning its a nice Newmar DutchStar rather than an old school bus as suggested by another poster....

(Edit) I should add that being in the same situation as the OP, I had a neighbor express his dislike of RVs being parked at various houses in the neighborhood ( violating our non-enforcable CC&Rs. ). Over the years he still remained nice enough ... it was just his expressed opinion.... and he held no grudge in the matter.

I'd be interested in hearing the OP's finaly resolution when it is made.

[dedmiston]

Is there an Enforcement section in the CC&Rs? And is there any verbiage about the duration of the CC&Rs and whether they expire after the HOA board is dissolved?

The CC&Rs are a contract between you and the association. But if the association is gone, then it seems like the contract would expire with the termination of the HOA.

If they're enforceable though, then don't ignore them. The comment about the liens is kind of only half right. My neighborhood has an HOA and one of our neighbors never paid his dues and racked up all sorts of other HOA fines (barking dogs, house wasn't maintained, etc.). The board got tired of sending all of his fines to collections, so they put liens on his property and eventually perfected the liens to force a sale. It turned out that he was in arrears with his lender too, so the lender piggybacked on the process and foreclosed his house and booted him. It was the perfect storm for the guy, because his restaurant partner got tired of him and won the business, and then he was arrested, convicted, and jailed for sexually assaulting one of his employees.

He was bad news and the neighborhood is better off without him.

Except for the arrest and jail, the whole thing could have been avoided if he'd just paid his monthly $45 HOA dues. The cheap turkey got what was coming to him.

[Gdetrailer]

Ed_Gee wrote:
Given the additional info the OP has posted, it sounds like everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The lady merely indicated she would wishes she didn't have to see it when upstairs .... nothing else, apparently. I live in an exact same situation as the OP is looking at... a neighborhood in which the developer created CC&Rs that everyone had to sign off on when buying. Fortunately, no HOA was ever created.... and thus, many people in the neighborhood have violated those CC&Rs ... boats, RVs, ham radio antennas, even the color of the houses. There is no enforcement, and never will be. If an individual in the neighborhood wants to create a fuss over something, he would have to hire a lawyer ... and no guarantees there, too. I suspect if the OP is nice to his neighbor across the street she'll get used to it.

She voiced that she would rather the OP "store it elsewhere", meaning in an indirect way that she didn't like the idea of a RV that she could see and would rather not see it.

SHE WAS THERE FIRST.. and IF YOU "want to get along all together in the same sandbox" you ARE going to have to at least pretend to get along with HER request.

Sort of the same thing that could happen to you Ed_Gee, what if someone decided to buy and tear down several homes across from you and then build a 24/7/365 "convenience" store and gas station and point their bright parking lot lights right into your windows?

The same issue goes for someone doing something to a property across from you and parking a big RV or even a old "school bus" where you can view it every time you look out a window..

OP knows that there were some "rules" written, they may or may not be binding or valid, but obviously since they have received a copy there may be some life in them..

You can choose to ignore or just choose a place elsewhere and live in peace. It is far cheaper and less hassle to AVOID such issues before committing to buying. Once you sign the sales agreement and paperwork it is a binding contract and will cost a lot of money to put back up for sale if you find that the neighbor is not as "nice" down the road.

[jdc1]

You probably have a Community Service District that sees to it the CC&R's are followed (when reported violations occur). I would drive around the neighborhood and take pictures of as many RV's, boats and trailers as you can, proving they existence of a need for an amendment to the CC&R's. But, I would also ask my neighbors how they feel about an RV being exposed in that parking area.

[dodge_guy]

I would never knowingly buy a house across the street with Miss Kravitz living there!

Its amazing the amount of people that have a hard time with an RV parked in front of or next to a house...….some worth as much or more than said house!

[Ed_Gee]

Given the additional info the OP has posted, it sounds like everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The lady merely indicated she would wishes she didn't have to see it when upstairs .... nothing else, apparently. I live in an exact same situation as the OP is looking at... a neighborhood in which the developer created CC&Rs that everyone had to sign off on when buying. Fortunately, no HOA was ever created.... and thus, many people in the neighborhood have violated those CC&Rs ... boats, RVs, ham radio antennas, even the color of the houses. There is no enforcement, and never will be. If an individual in the neighborhood wants to create a fuss over something, he would have to hire a lawyer ... and no guarantees there, too. I suspect if the OP is nice to his neighbor across the street she'll get used to it.

[okhmbldr]

Once this neighbor finds out what a great neighbor you will be, she'll let it go.
I would take photos of all the other neighborhood offenders. Park your motorhome next to your house. If she complains show her the photos and let her know you will gladly place the motorhome in storage when the other folks do likewise.
Covenants only mean something if there is an enforceable body to take action.
Take her some sticky buns when you move in and play nice. And enjoy your new home.

[Gdetrailer]

kmb1966 wrote:

Walaby wrote:
Im just mildly curious. Did OP actually go to the neighbor and say "hey, Im thinking of buying this place, and I have an RV... Do you have a problem with that"?

I guess I assume something like that transpired. Otherwise, why would she even comment or know he has an RV?

Or, OP, did you see the CC&R and then ask the neighbor?

Either way, I guess it's good you found out before you bought the place. With the CC&R written the way you describe, I wouldn't have even gotten to the point of considering it personally.

Mike

Good question. Yes, we were outside chit-chatting with the neighbor when I casually mentioned having an RV. The CC&R subject never came up, she just said she wishes I could store it somewhere else so that she didn't have to see it from her upstairs window. She never mentioned CC&R's or lawsuit or HOA. But I know I received a copy of the CC&R's but that was after I had already seen several other RV's parked in driveways (not even behind the gates!), some with slides out and plugged in, hooked up. So I assumed it was OK. I suppose I could be a victim of selective enforcement.

At least she did tell you what she thinks.

May or may not be an issue, however, since she did mention she "wishes" you could "store elsewhere" I would take that as a pretty good indication that overall she eventually will not be real happy to view your RV and over time can create hostility..

Not to mention, kind of creepy to me that other folks can look into your backyard but then again, I chose a location that I am surrounded by no close neighbors beside me that can peek into my back yard.. They would have to have a 10 story building to view the lowest part of my backyard from the other side of the road.. Have no neighbors on one side all the way to an road intersection 1/4 mile away and old farm land (much is heavily wooded)on the back of my house and the the neighbor on the other side of my house has a nice log home back a heavily wooded lane (I can't see his house and he can't see mine)..

[Lantley]

Why buy into a fight? Are there no houses without any strings attached?

[kmb1966]

Walaby wrote:
Im just mildly curious. Did OP actually go to the neighbor and say "hey, Im thinking of buying this place, and I have an RV... Do you have a problem with that"?

I guess I assume something like that transpired. Otherwise, why would she even comment or know he has an RV?

Or, OP, did you see the CC&R and then ask the neighbor?

Either way, I guess it's good you found out before you bought the place. With the CC&R written the way you describe, I wouldn't have even gotten to the point of considering it personally.

Mike

Good question. Yes, we were outside chit-chatting with the neighbor when I casually mentioned having an RV. The CC&R subject never came up, she just said she wishes I could store it somewhere else so that she didn't have to see it from her upstairs window. She never mentioned CC&R's or lawsuit or HOA. But I know I received a copy of the CC&R's but that was after I had already seen several other RV's parked in driveways (not even behind the gates!), some with slides out and plugged in, hooked up. So I assumed it was OK. I suppose I could be a victim of selective enforcement.

[kmb1966]

bukhrn wrote:
Have you tried to contact the 5 other houses with RV's, boat, etc, and asked them how they get away with it and what if any problems have they had, or is it just your neighbor with an attitude.

Good question. Yes, I have spoken with a few of them. They said that no one has ever complained. However, I am the one that lives directly across the street from the lady that says she doesn't want to look at my RV even if it is behind the fence.

[Walaby]

Im just mildly curious. Did OP actually go to the neighbor and say "hey, Im thinking of buying this place, and I have an RV... Do you have a problem with that"?

I guess I assume something like that transpired. Otherwise, why would she even comment or know he has an RV?

Or, OP, did you see the CC&R and then ask the neighbor?

Either way, I guess it's good you found out before you bought the place. With the CC&R written the way you describe, I wouldn't have even gotten to the point of considering it personally.

Mike