Is PA "warning" Rvers. (license).

[cbshoestring]

OK...I WILL GO THERE. It is early in the year, might as well get it started. I added the color, but the quote is from the PA DOT site.

CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).


I found it interesting the an RV was the example. I am "in the business", as they say, I don't recall this example the last time I looked.
Most of us will stay under the 26,000, making it a mute point. However, I know there are some big rigs out there.

[moresmoke]

Pretty much everything required for a basic CDL test would be the same between commercial and non commercial. Rules of the road-check. Air brakes-check. Cargo securement-you don't need to know how to secure steel coil in an RV, but if you have that car in the enclosed hauler it should be secured properly. Axle weight and hitch rules all apply...

Hazmat and tank are endorsements so you wouldn't take those tests. Also, hours of service is not part of a CDL test, so no wasted space there.

Now I have no idea what PA's intention is with this law, and whether or not it is enforced. But, I do think it is a good idea to have non commercial higher weight class licences. Why let Joe Money head down the road in a Prevost pulling a 21,000 GVW car hauler without any proof that he has any clue what he is doing?

[cbshoestring]

DrewE wrote:


Non-commercial licenses apparently use form DL-180, according to the web site. The form says it's for non-commercial licenses at the top, so checking the "class A" box would (eventually) get one a class A non-commercial license.

I missed the differing form numbers...just cruised right by those numbers. Yes...it is right there, Class A non-commercial.

That answers the permit issue..not the license issue.

So, I did more research (online), plus decided to ask a few "experts". All told me there is no such thing. Well, apperantly there is, and has been for about ten years.

So, I ask how one would study for it....get pointed to CDL book (or so they guess). Doesn't make sense. Why study commercial if I am seeking NON-commercial. Do more online looking.... Apperantly not just my DLC that says...."HUH".

Me thinks the state decided to get more in line with federal, without putting much effort, or enforcement, into the issue. In other words....apperantly it is an option, but it is almost impossible to find someone that can explain how to get thru the written/road test without doing the COMMERCIAL test.

Whole thing is a mess...my head hurts....I have Class A...anyone that lives in PA that might want the NON-COMMERCIAL class A can go fight with the DMV on how you test for it.

[DrewE]

cbshoestring wrote:


If a motorhome driver in PA wanted to be legal hauling an enclosed trailer...how do they get said NON-COMMERCIAL license. All indications are----the get a commercial license. I see no classification for class A non-commercial within the classes of license that can be obtained??????????

My enquiry is strictly for informational purposes (the only thing I can't legal drive is "P"...I ain't hauling anything that talks back to me). However, if I wanted to remove the commercial (it has medical examination requirements) and hold a NON-COMMERCIAL class A, it does not seem possible. PA classes are A,B,C & M....no reference to commercial/non-commercial.

Non-commercial licenses apparently use form DL-180, according to the web site. The form says it's for non-commercial licenses at the top, so checking the "class A" box would (eventually) get one a class A non-commercial license.

Commercial licenses use form DL-31CD.

In both cases, these forms are applications for a learner's permit, which as best as I can suss out get upgraded to an actual license when one passes the applicable tests etc.

If you wanted to drop the commercial license and only have an equivalent non-commercial license, it's not clear to me what form you'd use. In that situation I'd just call the DMV and hope I could talk to someone who knows the ins and outs of the bureaucracy.

[cbshoestring]

DrewE wrote: The former are CDLs, the latter are not. They explicitly list an RV as an example of when one would need a non-commercial class A license.


I get that...I point out it states NON-COMMERCIAL.

If you check the link to the PA DOT site, it CLEARLY shows a NON-COMMERCIAL Class A (b,c,m) then goes on to a COMMERCIAL class A, B, C. Yet I find no difference when it comes to applying for a class A or B (the commercial "c" does as normal we are talking drivers that need a passenger endorsment).

If a motorhome driver in PA wanted to be legal hauling an enclosed trailer...how do they get said NON-COMMERCIAL license. All indications are----the get a commercial license. I see no classification for class A non-commercial within the classes of license that can be obtained??????????

My enquiry is strictly for informational purposes (the only thing I can't legal drive is "P"...I ain't hauling anything that talks back to me). However, if I wanted to remove the commercial (it has medical examination requirements) and hold a NON-COMMERCIAL class A, it does not seem possible. PA classes are A,B,C & M....no reference to commercial/non-commercial.

[DrewE]

cbshoestring wrote:

DrewE wrote:

CDLs are never required for RVs used for personal noncommercial uses. What a CDL applies to is regulated at the federal level, and RVs are specifically excluded.

Not true.

PA law clearly states the a class A is required for combinations over 26,000 trailer in excess of 10,000. The only class A one can obtain in PA is refered to as a CDL...DO NOT get hung up on the word COMMERCIAL...it is a weight thing, not a WHAT is being hauled thing.

Other states have similar laws---check our own states.

This page from the PA DOT lists both commercial and non-commercial class A licenses (as separate things). The former are CDLs, the latter are not. They explicitly list an RV as an example of when one would need a non-commercial class A license.

It is true that the categories of non-commercial licenses (in PA and in some other states) are based on weights, and use the same limits as the federal CDLs, but that's up to the individual state to decide. In Vermont, where I'm from, the only non-commercial license categories are for motorcycles and for everything else; anyone with an ordinary Vermont driver's license may drive any RV, regardless of weight. That even applies to learner's permits, so far as I can tell.

[BB_TX]

Texas statutes do differentiate between commercial (CDL) and non commercial with the following statute exception;

Recreational vehicles driven for personal use (although a CDL is not required, individuals must obtain the proper license class for the vehicle weight)

[cbshoestring]

DrewE wrote:

leggy wrote:
First I agree that CDL changes everything, however, the way my CDL class B reads is that I can not tow anything greater than 10,000 lbs. In fact I have a friend that was ticketed for pulling an equipment trailer more than 10k behind his pickup last year. Yes, it was with a contractor's truck so became a commercial situation. He was going to fight it but I'm not sure how he made out. This is the first time I have heard about it being applied to RVs. I am going to do some research.

CDLs are never required for RVs used for personal noncommercial uses. What a CDL applies to is regulated at the federal level, and RVs are specifically excluded.

Not true.

PA law clearly states the a class A is required for combinations over 26,000 trailer in excess of 10,000. The only class A one can obtain in PA is refered to as a CDL...DO NOT get hung up on the word COMMERCIAL...it is a weight thing, not a WHAT is being hauled thing.

Other states have similar laws---check our own states.

CDLs are also not required for pulling trailers greater than 10,000 pounds if the combined weight of the trailer and the tow vehicle is not more than 26,000 pounds. This leads to the rather odd situation where one can pull, say, a 15,000 pound trailer with a 10,000 pound tow vehicle without a CDL but not an 12,000 pound trailer with a 15,000 pound tow vehicle, even though the latter likely requires less care and skill (and is generally safer overall).

ODD isn't it.

You can legally drive any combination, as long as they don't exceed 26,000. Can you see an 8,000 truck being pushed by a 17,999 trailer.

Want to hear an equally odd fact...that 26,000 truck can have airbrakes, no knowledge on how those brakes work is required. Register that same truck at 26,001 and you will have to take a test proving your knowledge of air brakes.

I asked a Motor Carrier Safety Officer about this, since I see a lot of moving company trucks, with air brakes, being rented to ma & pa. He shook his head, said they have no authority over the "regular" licensed...but once you get that Class B, fed regs kick in.

[cbshoestring]

BulldawgFan wrote:
I am not sure I am understanding what the actual issue is here in the first place? Just something to fuss about?

I was actually on the website investigating how they are seperating endorsements/restrictions for CDL holders that take test in automatic trucks/trailers without 5th wheels. PA is catching up to the trucking schools that push CDL holders out the door without proper training for the vehicles they are being licensed to drive. Guys and girls who take test in an automatic truck, then can't drive the 10 speed they are on the road with; or people that test with a pintel and have no idea how to hook up a fith wheel.

Many people get hung up the "C" of CDL. It really is not about COMMERCIAL, it is more a weight issue. I have never seen that example before---as it seems to be pointed a RVers.

I thought I would point out that EXAMPLE, because I thought the RV world would find an example "Pointed AT them" to be interesting. At least those living in Pennsylvania.

[DrewE]

leggy wrote:
First I agree that CDL changes everything, however, the way my CDL class B reads is that I can not tow anything greater than 10,000 lbs. In fact I have a friend that was ticketed for pulling an equipment trailer more than 10k behind his pickup last year. Yes, it was with a contractor's truck so became a commercial situation. He was going to fight it but I'm not sure how he made out. This is the first time I have heard about it being applied to RVs. I am going to do some research.

CDLs are never required for RVs used for personal noncommercial uses. What a CDL applies to is regulated at the federal level, and RVs are specifically excluded.

CDLs are also not required for pulling trailers greater than 10,000 pounds if the combined weight of the trailer and the tow vehicle is not more than 26,000 pounds. This leads to the rather odd situation where one can pull, say, a 15,000 pound trailer with a 10,000 pound tow vehicle without a CDL but not an 12,000 pound trailer with a 15,000 pound tow vehicle, even though the latter likely requires less care and skill (and is generally safer overall).

[leggy]

First I agree that CDL changes everything, however, the way my CDL class B reads is that I can not tow anything greater than 10,000 lbs. In fact I have a friend that was ticketed for pulling an equipment trailer more than 10k behind his pickup last year. Yes, it was with a contractor's truck so became a commercial situation. He was going to fight it but I'm not sure how he made out. This is the first time I have heard about it being applied to RVs. I am going to do some research.

[BulldawgFan]

I am not sure I am understanding what the actual issue is here in the first place? Just something to fuss about?

[colliehauler]

Old-Biscuit wrote:

BB_TX wrote:
Texas has that same class A (non commercial) requirement and very nearly the same wording, except the statutes do not throw an example as you noted in red.

Many states have license requirements for 26K+ vehicles.
PA is just catching up with others.
CA has had that requirement for years.
Even have it for 5th wheels 15K+ and TT 10K+

Kansas is 26k for rv's as well unless it is a motor coach then you can drive 80K rig with a regular license.

[fpresto]

Maryland has the same rules. Over 26,001 lbs. requires a different license (class B in Maryland), whether it is a Class A or a 5th or regular trailer.

[Lantley]

srt20 wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:
Just remember.. if you are leagal in your "Home" state you are legal. Period.

X2.

WI doesn't require CDL for RVs no matter the size, used for recreation. Could be a class 8 towing a huge 5er. And Im good throughout USA.

This is not a CDL requirement.

[srt20]

wa8yxm wrote:
Just remember.. if you are leagal in your "Home" state you are legal. Period.

X2.

WI doesn't require CDL for RVs no matter the size, used for recreation. Could be a class 8 towing a huge 5er. And Im good throughout USA.