Practicality of non-propane Camper

[DiploStrat]

Is it possible to have an all-electric (or, at least, no propane) camper? Of course, been doing it since 2013. (OK, true confession, our outside grill is propane as you usually can't use charcoal west of the Mississippi due to fire bans.)

A serious answer.

Our first EV (expedition vehicle) had 500w of solar and 600Ah of lead acid battery. The worst camping weather we ever faced was five days of tropical storm rain at Overland EXPO East. To protect our batteries, we simply idled the engine for the 20-30 minutes we were cooking meals. We have only had to do this once since 2013.

Our current vehicle has 800Ah of lithium iron and 600w of solar. Of course, we also have a bigger, two door refrigerator.

Historic data: We budget 30 wall clock minutes of power per meal; 15 minutes of microwave and 15 minutes of induction cooktop. At a guesstimated consumption of 150A, this works out to about 75Ah for a dinner. With a two door refrigerator, fans/heat, lights, etc., we are usually down about 125 - 135Ah overnight.

Lithium iron allows a lot more power in less space/weight, but we did this for years with lead acid AGM.

We visit family in the northern part of the US and the temperatures drop to below 0F. This pretty much requires diesel or gasoline heat.

We can run the air conditioner over night, but this consumes on the order of 500Ah, and that is hard to recover without using shore power.

[Grit_dog]

pianotuna wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
I’m kinda slow, and yes I understand both sides of the coin. But I just don’t understand some folks aversion to propane…

Hi Grit dog,

I'm not adverse to propane--but I have a fixed tank. That means small towns can't sell me propane. So I run my RV almost 100% electrically, and only use propane to run the fridge while trundling down the road.

And that’s you working through a limitation, perceived or otherwise, with your particular camper. In situations that the vast majority don’t camp in.
You missed the point and thought I was talking aboot you?

[Lantley]

Wade44 wrote:

Lantley wrote:
I don't see any difference between a diesel engine and a genset.
Both are relatively loud and burn fossil fuels.
Surviving on renewable energy alone is a real achievment.
Existing on fossil fuels is no real accompishment.

I would like to know the amount of fossil fuels that were used to manufacture all that stuff in your signature?

I am personally not green at all.
I fill my truck with $6.00 a gallon diesel fuel a burn it till the tank is empty and fill it up again.
I'm not claiming to be green! Or live an ECO friendly lifestyle.
I did not start this thread.
While I'm not green at all I commend those that try to be eco friendly.
However the OP claims to be electric only except he runs his diesel engine at will. Nothing wrong with that approach but it is quite a stretch to claim electric only when lots of things are supported by a diesel engine.
Once upon a time Electric only meant no lp, however now I believe it means off grid living with solar power only.

[K3WE]

Very simple: Do you want, or need to camp with batteries/no electrical hookup?

Typical battery setups fall way way way short on heating, cooking and AC .

Being slightly more complicated: 20 and 30 Amp hookups also fall a little short sometimes...It can be done, but you'll have to stagger things.

[pianotuna]

DiploStrat wrote:
And I would certainly never try to heat a camper electrically, although I have seen a lot of folks using heat strips or pumps.

I have heated 100% electrically at -37 C (-34 f). The wattage needed was about 4100 watt-hours. Peak load was about 7000 watts.

I use several heat sources. It does require that I have either a 50 amp shore power supply, or three 15 amp circuits.

[pianotuna]

Grit dog wrote:
I’m kinda slow, and yes I understand both sides of the coin. But I just don’t understand some folks aversion to propane…

Hi Grit dog,

I'm not adverse to propane--but I have a fixed tank. That means small towns can't sell me propane. So I run my RV almost 100% electrically, and only use propane to run the fridge while trundling down the road.

[toedtoes]

Sure, there are all electric RVs out there. People buy them and enjoy them. People remove their non electric appliances and replace them with electric.

But at the same time, many people choose to do without electrical as much as possible.

You do what works for you and accept that not everyone wants to camp the same way.

[theoldwizard1]

My next RV will not have propane.

• I don't camp in cold weather or I just use extra blankets. A knitted hat makes a big difference.

• Most of the time I am plugged in. If I as going to do any boondocking, I would have a generator in addition to solar. LiFePO4 batteries are a must !

• No black tank ! Cassette or composting.

[Lantley]

I don't see any difference between a diesel engine and a genset.
Both are relatively loud and burn fossil fuels.
Surviving on renewable energy alone is a real achievment.
Existing on fossil fuels is no real accompishment.

[rk911]

we we travel we tend to purposely avoid temps below freezing but when we do our rooftop heat pumps, the small electric space heaters and our heated mattress pad keep us nice and warm. but we consistently find ourselves in daytime temps that require air cond. maybe technology will, someday, enable an RV to not need electrical hookups in favor on an onboard power source (fuel cells, dilithium crystals, etc) but it's not gonna happen before we give up our keys. so until then we will, unashamedly, hook up to power, run the genny and burn propane as needed.

[Grit_dog]

So you have a camper with some decent battery storage, a good inverter presumably and some solar panels.
And you have to time how long you take to cook and can’t stay cool in the summer or warm in the winter without using fossil fuels to supplement.

Thanks for sharing.
PS if your friends switched away from LP capable absorption refrigerators to save on total propane consumption , or however you put it, a word of advice ….Don’t take their advice, the fridge sips propane.

[DiploStrat]

Please see my first post.

I think the point is that it is very possible to build an off-grid camper that is comfortable from below 0F to whatever heat you can stand without using propane or a generator.

When used for cabin heat and hot water, propane is not as effective as gasoline or diesel. And I would certainly never try to heat a camper electrically, although I have seen a lot of folks using heat strips or pumps.

Expedition campers, as opposed to RV's, try to avoid propane as it is low energy for weight/volume, can be difficult to fill outside of the US (need adapters), and it can be difficult/expensive to get a certificate that it has been removed before shipment. (To be fair, a good friend of mine carries a lot of adapters and, because he uses propane only for cooking, and, with a 30 gallon tank, he has around 90 days, he argues that if you can't find propane in 30 days, you aren't trying. That said, the last we chatted, he was considering going to an induction cooktop. (FWIW - most of us who have used diesel cooktops don't like them. But that is another discussion.)

Air conditioning without shore power or a generator is a challenge - less for the cooling and more for the recharge. I can easily do 12 hours; absent a long drive and a lot of sun, I may not be able to do it three days in a row. 😞

[valhalla360]

Sure you don't need propane if you run the generator (or engine alternator) to make up the difference in what can be covered by solar/battery.

If you stick strictly to areas that don't require air/con or heat, it's certainly possible to run the house loads off a solar/battery system.

But as you indicated, when you need air/con and/or heat, it comes with a lot of compromises really quick.

But it completely misses the point to swap out diesel power for propane power and claim you are "all electric".

[rk911]

i wouldn't have one. i'm a plan B kind of guy. we keep the fresh water tank full even when hooked up to water. and we don't let the LP tank get much lower than half a tank even though we use electric heat when we have hook-ups. nope, not interested in an all-eelctric RV or a "solar generator".

[DiploStrat]

Fair question of semantics.

Perhaps a better title might be "non-propane?" But some of my friends have gone to electric refrigerators (with or without gasoline/diesel heat) specifically to get their propane to last for months.

I have a 12v air conditioner, but for the reasons you noted, I tend to argue that a 110/220v air conditioner is a better, more practical answer.

If it is really THAT hot, then you are probably going to find a camp site (most of who won't give you a discount for not using shore power) or, as you noted, carrying one of the new, small inverter/generators.

In my world there is a premium attached to not having propane, both for the difficulty of finding the right fitting, and for the complications of shipping. (Specifically the requirement for a certification that there is no propane left on board.)

In the end, do what works best for you.

In my case, the limitation is recharge. I can get a steady 25A the hour in good sun.

[jkwilson]

DiploStrat wrote:
Two comments:

-- NEVER needed a generator. But my largest draw is the air conditioner and I can only do a short time before I would probably need shore power to replenish.

-- Would not consider electric heat. I use diesel. Diesel or gasoline are MUCH more energy dense than propane. (And using diesel or gasoline eliminates the need to carry multiple adapters for gas fittings in different countries.)

A number of new builds are using a heat exchanger for hot water. Water typically stays hot for two/three days after driving.

The systems on my truck are typical of expedition campers.

Two commercial examples are:

Aeon

Nimbl
T

Not completely disagreeing, but if you use diesel or gas for heat you aren’t all electric anymore than someone that uses propane, and if you need shore power to recover from overnight air conditioner use you might as well run a small generator.