Question from Ron Gratz post in a sticky

[Bobbo]

I have been studying Ron Gratz's example of the 2000 pound lift WDH, in the sticky on this forum, and have a question.

If the tow vehicle has, say, an 1800 pound payload rating, and loaded for camping WITHOUT a WDH you are carrying 1600 pounds of payload, including tongue weight. That means you are 200 pounds below your payload rating.

Now, you add Ron's WDH that shifts 300 pounds to the TT axles. Does that mean you are now 500 pounds below your payload rating?

Thanks,

Bobbo

[Huntindog]

irishtom29 wrote:
In 35 years as a heavy rigger I learned that working right up to a rated limit is good. Close and under is good. Over is bad. I needed my WD hitch to get my truck within limits. I used it then weighed it. It was good. The tongue weight (I had a scale) was just under the receiver limit. All was good.

TTs are quite a bit different than other trailers.
Because of how they are used, weights, and their distribution can vary a LOT. Even in the course of a single outing. Holding tanks alone can shift a lot of weight around. Add to the many other things that move around as we "live" in the TT, such as food, laundry, propane etc. etc. and it becomes obvious that cutting it close will mean an overload at some point for most people... Probably sooner and more often than they can imagine.

Splitting these hairs when doing the math for vehicles that not in hand or actually weighable is a fools errand

[irishtom29]

In 35 years as a heavy rigger I learned that working right up to a rated limit is good. Close and under is good. Over is bad. I needed my WD hitch to get my truck within limits. I used it then weighed it. It was good. The tongue weight (I had a scale) was just under the receiver limit. All was good.

[Bobbo]

Picked up my new truck today. Door sticker says 1895 pounds. I haven't taken any measurements yet, but am happy with that payload.

[Bobbo]

Thanks. I already have a spreadsheet set up to input the numbers from my truck and trailer (when they are FINALLY delivered). I don't plan to ride the ragged edge. That is why I am trying, on the front end, to learn how to figure where the edge is.

[JBarca]

Bobbo wrote:
I have been studying Ron Gratz's example of the 2000 pound lift WDH, in the sticky on this forum, and have a question.

If the tow vehicle has, say, an 1800 pound payload rating, and loaded for camping WITHOUT a WDH you are carrying 1600 pounds of payload, including tongue weight. That means you are 200 pounds below your payload rating.

Now, you add Ron's WDH that shifts 300 pounds to the TT axles. Does that mean you are now 500 pounds below your payload rating?

Thanks,

Bobbo

Hi Bobbo,

I know you are trying to understand this. There is a piece that is not to be forgotten about.

In Ron's example, that 300# was calculated based on the, wheelbase of the truck, the rear overhang of the tow ball behind the rear axle and the distance from the tow ball to the trailer axles.

If you change any of those distances, the amount of weight that moves to the trailer axles will change. If you have a very short camper from tow ball to axles, more weight will go to the trailer. If you have a very long trailer less weight will end up at the trailer axles for the same truck. The same goes for a change in the truck. And this is only when the truck and trailer are level. When the angle between the truck and trailer change(as viewed looking down the center of the truck) as in sweeping banked turns, going over large humps in the road, going up hills down hills, all those transitions can change the WD. This is just normal for the WD hitch. You can go in and out of being over payload capacity if you are sitting on the edge.

You do get some relief on truck GVW when using the WD hitch. But as was said, if you are that close, this is not a good place to be. Every camping trip I go on, there are some changes in truck and camper loading. It just seems to happen. Try and not be on the raged edge all the time. It is not a fun place to be.

If you are looking for a safe number, use all of the tongue weight is held by the truck. Then the small excess shifted to the camper axles from WD is a safety margin for changing camper and truck gear loads.

Hope this helps

John

[Bobbo]

I don't have either a tow vehicle or a trailer yet. Both are ordered but not delivered as of now. This was a hypothetical so I could learn how it works. I should have my trailer this week, or next week at the latest. They told me two days ago that the solar panels had come in. All they have to do is install them. The truck won't be here until at least the second week of June.

[Huntindog]

The only comment I have:
If your TV is so close to capacity that 300# is important.... Perhaps a bigger TV or a smaller trailer is the best solution.

My reasoning is simple. With that small a margin, you will at some point find yourself over. Probably sooner and by more than you can imagine.

[blt2ski]

Grit dog wrote:
Cmon blt2ski, you can't possibly believe all of what you just wrote....
300lbs off the front and a 1 ton truck gets squirrelly??? Lol
Based on what?
Starting with a heavy diesel and then get in a gasser and the front end is light because the engine weighs 500lbs less?
Better get that wdh oiled up for the pop up behind the ole 1 ton! Goin campin!

Bobbo, it's a 3 ton trailer going behind a truck rated for and capable of towing considerably more Than that. Don't lose any sleep unless it's from the excitement of having a new airstream and brand new pickemup truck in the driveway soon!

I noticed at about 300 lbs off base weight, the front end started to have issues stopping on slick roads etc. Be them rain, or snow ice when up at I90 towing in the winter. That was minimum amount. The 2 sw 35's,and 88 and 96, were probably lighter per say than todays 25 series trucks too! My 05 dually needed more than 500 lbs off the front, never have gotten there per say with my navistar!

Marty

[demiles]

As said going on the scale is really the only way to know for sure what's going on and where the weight is. When you sit just the tongue weight on the hitch the rear of the truck goes down and the front goes up. This transfers additional weight to the rear axle from the front axle of the truck along with the tongue weight. So if you were to use the WD hitch to lower the front of the truck back to its original height you transfer that weight back to the front axle where it came from in the first place. Now you are also distributing weight back to the trailer axles too but surprisingly youll probably end up with 90% or more of the tongue weight still on the rear axle. The amount distributed is a little different on each vehicle depending on the distances from the ball to the tow vehicle rear axle and from the ball to trailer axle center line. The new towing standards say to only restore about half the rise distance on the front of the vehicle to lessen the chance of jack knifing under heavy braking. Now this may leave the rear of the vehicle down further than most people like but don't stress over it. Most newer trucks have progressive rate springs so let the weight settle down on the heavier springs, that may require dropping down an inch or may be two. Check your vehicles owners manual for specifics on WD setup.

[Grit_dog]

Cmon blt2ski, you can't possibly believe all of what you just wrote....
300lbs off the front and a 1 ton truck gets squirrelly??? Lol
Based on what?
Starting with a heavy diesel and then get in a gasser and the front end is light because the engine weighs 500lbs less?
Better get that wdh oiled up for the pop up behind the ole 1 ton! Goin campin!

Bobbo, it's a 3 ton trailer going behind a truck rated for and capable of towing considerably more Than that. Don't lose any sleep unless it's from the excitement of having a new airstream and brand new pickemup truck in the driveway soon!

[jerem0621]

The only way to really know what's going on is to weigh the rig. Theory is great and all, but it's not real world. The amount of weight distribution truly depends on each individual set up.

On my previous F150 I had to crank the bars down quite a bit to get proper WD...when I moved to the F350 Dually I used the same WD hitch and trailer and I really did was add some tension on the bars. Helped with some of the bouncyness and porpoising but I did not NEED it with the F350.

But yea, weigh everything and figure out how your set up settles.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[blt2ski]

drsteve wrote:
Too much tongue weight can exceed the rating of the hitch receiver when not using WD. The numbers are on the receiver. On my truck, it's 500 lb tongue without WD, 1000 lb with. Max trailer is 5000 without, 10,000 with.

Again, these are receiver ratings, not the truck itself.

If you want to dead weight more than the current receiver gives you, and you are with in specs of the tow rig. Get a heavier duty hitch!

WHat I have personally found with a WDH system. IS when you take off a certain amount of weight from the front axel, usually about 300 lbs for the SW 35 series trucks I've had in the past, the steering etc gets bad/goofy, what ever term you want to call it. A WDH will put the wt taken off the front to the rear axel, and put it back to the front, putting truck steering/handling back to what I will call a normal feeling.

When towing my TT without, vs with, and vs with a sway control. I found in cross winds, the trailer rocked side to side less with a dual cam set up, than a basic WD, vs no bars what so ever. I never had fish tail sway with that trailer, so can not comment on this. BUT< having been hit by what I will swag was something over 50 mph based on known wind speeds going over the Columbia from Portland to Vancouver, with the dual cam, I did move half a lane to left with said gust. Everything went as one! As did many other rigs on the bridge I was on.

As noted, as the hitch head drops from slightly raised, to level, to lower than level, wt gets taken off the FA, and trailer axels, and placed on the rear axel. Some is ok, you will not notice this, too much makes for a bad handling rig. Hence why a WD can make or break a given rig.

I'm also of the, if the trailer does not tow well without bars, find and FIX the issue for said bad handling if it moves say side to side uncontrollably. If all you do is slap on an anti sway device, this is putting a band aid on a cut, that needs a tourniquet. You still have a trailer that wants to sway.

Marty

[drsteve]

Too much tongue weight can exceed the rating of the hitch receiver when not using WD. The numbers are on the receiver. On my truck, it's 500 lb tongue without WD, 1000 lb with. Max trailer is 5000 without, 10,000 with.

Again, these are receiver ratings, not the truck itself.

[Grit_dog]

Yes, if you kick 300lb of tongue weight back to the trailer axles you theoretically have gained back some available payload.
I'm in the camp of why do you need a wdh if you have suitable payload available without it, but I'm in the minority. There is a "magical" reason wdhs are used in almost all TT applications and almost never in other applications and IMO it stems partly from RV salesmen and inexperiencd customers and from back in the day when trailers were still heavy and the trucks weren't as capable. Also due in part to not all TTs are designed with reasonable tongue weight out of the box. You have toy haulers that are generally really tongue heavy without "toys" in back to balance the tongue weight.
Either way, you will have NO capacity issues with a brand new half ton with decent payload and towing capacity and a 6000lb trailer, contrary to what some would have you believe. Like the posters saying you're already maxed out and should have a bigger truck for a little ole 3 ton trailer.
Rest easy.