could anti flea/tick goo be too powerful for our dogs?

[trailernovice]

We have three little--under 20 lbs--dogs....stepson bought some squeeze-on goo to get rid of fleas and ticks...it's a little plastic container that gets broken open and then the contents get squeezed in a line down the critter's back...

here's the issue...the packet of three that he boughts says, on the package, 'for dogs 65 pounds and over' or words to that effect...would using a little squirt on each dog be ok? obviously would not use a whole vial on any one of 'em, but could a vial meant for a big dog be safely used on a little dog if divided into thirds with one-third of a vial squeezed onto each of our three dogs? or is the medication itself too powerful for a little dog regardless of the amount applied?

thanks!

[daverich]

We were having a huge tick problem and our vet told us to get Preventic Tick Collar by Virbac. It seems to be working. But, by all means call your vet and ask. They know your dogs.

[rockhillmanor]

Pawz4me wrote:

rockhillmanor wrote:
My Danes were all well above the weight of a 40 lb beagle.

Not to get off on another tangent, but a 40 pound beagle would be *very* overweight. In general healthy weight beagles run from about 15 to 30 pounds (depending on whether they're 13 or 15 inch beagles). When I was with beagle rescue it wasn't unusual for us to get females a little under 15 (at healthy weight). So some of the testing could be on smallish dogs.

My vet, who tends to be conservative, has always advised going for the lower dosage for dogs who are right above the cut off. My Brittany hovers around 47 pounds and the vet has always recommended using Frontline Plus in the 23-44 pound dosage rather than the 45-88 pound dose.

A little bit of poetic license I guess! :B
The 15 inch Beagle specials are always pushing the boundaries on accepted weight especially in the males, but they are always buffed up and look like fine tuned machines so they don't look fat!

That all said.......

The beagles used in testing are not all supplied from random shelters. For the most part they are bred for laboratory use. Standard not a part of it. And from what I have seen they are very uniform which is something I would prefer they be to get better consistent testing. I.E. for the agency doing the testing.

Everything you would want to know about the testing of a product or med you are going to give your dog, can be read right on the internet.
You can read each and every test and exactly how many dogs and what the results were per each lab dog in detail and often graphic to the layman. Just plug in the name of the product and all the testing info will be available.

I found reading every test gave me the information that I needed if the risk was high for increasing seizures. You won't find the in depth test results on the package. It appears on the inserts which they HAVE to have in the bottle, at the pharmacy or on line for most OTC.

[Pawz4me]

rockhillmanor wrote:
My Danes were all well above the weight of a 40 lb beagle.

Not to get off on another tangent, but a 40 pound beagle would be *very* overweight. In general healthy weight beagles run from about 15 to 30 pounds (depending on whether they're 13 or 15 inch beagles). When I was with beagle rescue it wasn't unusual for us to get females a little under 15 (at healthy weight). So some of the testing could be on smallish dogs.

My vet, who tends to be conservative, has always advised going for the lower dosage for dogs who are right above the cut off. My Brittany hovers around 47 pounds and the vet has always recommended using Frontline Plus in the 23-44 pound dosage rather than the 45-88 pound dose.

[rockhillmanor]

I'm new to this dark side of "recommended dosage for smaller dogs". So my verbiage on this subject is nothing more than 'sharing' what I soon found out I needed to learn.

I took almost 2 years of research to find a breed that was long lived, no inherited health issues and did not succumb easily to normal diseases.

I found what breed fit my requirements only to find out that "I" would most likely be the one to kill them by following the recommended dosage on the labels?! :S

[rockhillmanor]

Breeding dogs has nothing to do with discussing dosage and how it is related to small dogs of any breed or mix there of. It's body mass.
On Edit: I see you did make the exclusion for the small dog.

I had Great Danes for 30 years. With Danes if they were on the cusp of a dosage we ALWAYS went UP to the next dosage. 180 lb dog has a lot of real estate and it would be hard pressed for them to be 'overdosed' by going up one dose bracket. Covering was more important.
I never ever gave it much thought or worry.

The toy dog on the other hand has a problem with this. Give a 4 lb dog a dose that is marked small dogs up to 22 lbs.?

When they test a product, and not for the faint at heart here. One stage of testing is giving test dogs over doses to see at what point organ failure etc happens and at what dosage point they die from the product/med.

Again this is normally done on a 40lb beagle. How much it would take for them to die is not in any way shape or form related to how much it would take to kill a 4lb dog. So, the testing was done as mandated and within guidelines, comes up with the required numbers using the standard test dog, but has proven no relevancy to the 4 lb dog.

My Danes were all well above the weight of a 40 lb beagle. Large breed owners really don't have much to worry about. What it would take to kill a 40lb test beagle, most likely will not affect a 180 lb dog.

All I am saying is that these tests are done on a medium sized dog usually Beagles. Pet owners with small dogs have to be conscious of this fact and know what all the side effects are and to watch diligently for them.

So no Mark I an not suggesting testing all breeds of dogs.:R
The beagle was chosen because it WAS the average size dog and to set some sort of standards with the the FDA etc. I agree with their choice.

The results give us a "guideline" and the dogs from Medium size on up fair well with these tests. It is the small dog that needs attention from their owners as to how to use these products, because of the obvious opportunity of over dosing.

Here's just a few comments of 1,300 from pet owners whose dogs experienced serious reactions. Not related to just one brand either this discussion just happens to be about one particular one.
http://www.amazon.com/Possible-side-effects-with-Frontline/forum/Fx2ZCY3MQK9INEA/Tx2RINQTKGGPHHH/1?a...

When a dog presents with renal failure or neurological disorder and taken to the vet......the first thing out of your vets mouth is NOT going to be to you use spot flea treatment. And most likely the owner will continue administering the flea treatments simultaneous while the vet is trying to save the dog, from what REALLY was side effects of flea treatment.

[dturm]

BCSnob wrote:
What you want are R&D test kennels with every breed of dog for testing all drugs before being approved for sale on the market, breed specific doses and side effects should be determined for every drug, and there should be breed specific dose packages.

Perhaps instead of testing drugs on breeds with varying levels of genetic mutations to assess for "sensitivities" across the various breeds; breeders and breed organizations should be breeding dogs with fewer genetic mutations (more like the less sensitive test beagles).



IMO when drugs are found to be safe with beagles but not other breeds; the problem is not with the drug but with the genetics of the other breeds (excluding the size differences).

This is the difference between FDA and EPA standards. The parasiticides that are topical are regulated by EPA and undergo a much less stringent licensing procedure than drugs with FDA. Typically drugs with the FDA are tested in different age, species, sex and varying breeds.

If you want better testing, be prepared to fork over huge $$$ for these medications.

[BCSnob]

What you want are R&D test kennels with every breed of dog for testing all drugs before being approved for sale on the market, breed specific doses and side effects should be determined for every drug, and there should be breed specific dose packages.

Perhaps instead of testing drugs on breeds with varying levels of genetic mutations to assess for "sensitivities" across the various breeds; breeders and breed organizations should be breeding dogs with fewer genetic mutations (more like the less sensitive test beagles).



IMO when drugs are found to be safe with beagles but not other breeds; the problem is not with the drug but with the genetics of the other breeds (excluding the size differences).

[rockhillmanor]

It just is a fact that you can't just go solely by the dosage recommended. Key word being "recommended".(their CYA)

When the testing is done exclusively on one type and size of dog, and the parameters for different size dosages are set forth by 'calculations' derived from that one size/type dog testing? The pet owner needs to know and understand that the dosage recommended may be too much or too little for their particular pet.

Some product dosage amounts there is leeway, others deadly.
It's just a guideline, a poor one, but a guideline none the less.

THIS is what I would be more concerned about regarding this product as expressed by our very own government agencies.

"Spot-on treatments are not monitored by the government once their registration has been approved. Unlike drugs approved by the FDA, the officials said, flea and tick treatments do not undergo post-market surveillance."

They did the minimal testing on Beagles, calculated the dosage for all other size and weight dogs and released it to the public with no scrutiny of any other governing agency to ensure it's safety for all other size and breed of pets.

Sooo, if you own a Beagle, there's good news that what ever the dosage recommended is on the label it will be the correct dosage for YOUR dog! :B:B

[BCSnob]

rockhillmanor wrote:
Safety testing required before products are registered may be inadequate. Specifically, Farwell said the beagle is the standard laboratory animal used for companion-animal safety studies, but that breed is not sensitive to spot-on products. “The beagle is not the appropriate animal,” he said. He did not say what changes, if any, the agency would propose on testing protocol.""

Perhaps because the "senstive" breeds are more inbred/less genetically robust (have genetic mutations), in much the same way Collies are "sensitive" to ivermectin due to the MDR1 genetic mutation.

[BCSnob]

Or you could simply measure out the spot on drug based upon your dog's weight.


Herein lies the problem with prepackaged drugs. Drug doses are typically based upon body weight; however, companies cannot prepackage drugs for every body weight. So they prepackage drugs in weight ranges. If the body weight falls at either end of the weight ranges the drug dose will be at the minimum effective dose or possibly near the maximum safe dose.

[rockhillmanor]

Keep in mind this is from the EPA stating safety concerns while still trying to CYA their department. So you know it's actually far worse.:W
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15367

""U.S. EPA confirms problems exist with spot-on flea, tick treatments:
Dosages may be assigned to too broad a range of weights, the EPA stated. Consumers typically choose a spot-on treatment based on the species and weight of their pet. As an example, the product Frontline Plus for Dogs comes in four dosage sizes: for dogs 22 pounds and less; dogs between 23 and 44 pounds; dogs between 45 and 88 pounds; and dogs between 89 and 132 pounds.

Farwell said that in some cases, animals at the low or high end of their weight range may be receiving too much or not enough of a dose. Nesci said the agency is considering labeling and/or packaging changes that would result in narrower weight ranges.

Spot-on treatments are not monitored by the government once their registration has been approved. Unlike drugs approved by the FDA, the officials said, flea and tick treatments do not undergo post-market surveillance. The EPA said it would like to grant conditional registrations for new products, which would give the agency an opportunity to monitor the safety of products after they go to market.

Safety testing required before products are registered may be inadequate. Specifically, Farwell said the beagle is the standard laboratory animal used for companion-animal safety studies, but that breed is not sensitive to spot-on products. “The beagle is not the appropriate animal,” he said. He did not say what changes, if any, the agency would propose on testing protocol.""

[rockhillmanor]

BCSnob wrote:

rockhillmanor wrote:
NO, I sure would not. Some small breed dogs have problems even with the correct dosage. If you have not opened it why not just return it?

I would not be surprised if some small dogs (<10lbs) are getting too much volume of drug when the entire amount of the smallest weight package is used.

The max dose/lb calculations above indicate any dog under 11.3lbs getting the entire small dog package would exceed what the drug company has setup as the max dose/lb for the larger dogs.

YUP! EXACTLY! You are 100% right. And it's not just with flea treatment either.

I had a lot of learning to do when I switched to a toy breed when it came to meds.

Many times if your dog is only 1 lb over a given span of any product the vet prescribes the next dosage which goes up to sometimes 20 lbs more than your dog. I fought this with heartworm meds. I watched my dogs eyes glass over within an hour after giving it to him.

These flea treatments get REAL dicey when using it on toy dogs even when applying per instructions.

I have 4 dogs. 2 almost died after putting topical flea treatment.

After you put this stuff on observe your dog. Many will look lethargic looking for a couple of days that goes unnoticed by the owner. This is an indicator of their tolerance/toxicity. This stuff goes into the skin the largest organ on the body and permeates every inch of the body.

These products are tested on 'average' sized dogs and then they "calculate" what would be safe on smaller and larger dogs. I have yet to see a product test specifically on toy breeds. IMHO this is where the problem lies and its up to the owners.

I have found that with the toy breeds you have to be 'very' prudent with what you put on or in these dogs. Irregardless what the manufacturer recommended dosage is.

My advice is join a toy/small breed specific to your breed forum if you "really" want to know learn about the safety of meds and products and how they affect your specific breed or mixed breed of. IMHO it is a very good place to gain knowledge about the affect of meds/products on small breeds from pet owners who have been there done that. And sadly many of their pets died to prove that just because the label says the dose is safe it is not always so when it comes to the smaller dogs.:(

It is within this community you will also find what products to NEVER use on or administer to the smaller breeds even if it states it is safe.

[BCSnob]

rockhillmanor wrote:
NO, I sure would not. Some small breed dogs have problems even with the correct dosage. If you have not opened it why not just return it?

I would not be surprised if some small dogs (<10lbs) are getting too much volume of drug when the entire amount of the smallest weight package is used.

The max dose/lb calculations above indicate any dog under 11.3lbs getting the entire small dog package would exceed what the drug company has setup as the max dose/lb for the larger dogs.

[BCSnob]

You don't say what treatment you have.

I know for fact that ALL Frontline weight sizes have the same concentration of active ingredients (%drug in liquid); the only change is the total amount of liquid. This information is clearly listed on the packages and the product inserts.

Use Frontline Plus for Dogs (fipronil 9.8% and S-methoprene 8.8%) on dogs and puppies 8 weeks or older. Frontline Plus for Dogs is available as 0.67 ml applicators for use on dogs and puppies up to 22 lbs, 1.34 ml applicators for dogs 23-44 lbs, 2.68 ml applicators for dogs 45-88 lbs and 4.02 ml applicators for dogs 89-132 lbs.

We use this FACT (same drug concentration) to save money by purchasing the largest weight size and then measuring out some of the liquid for each dog based upon its weight.

0.67mL will treat up to 22lbs: 0.67mL/22lbs = 0.03mL/lb
1.34mL will treat up to 44lbs: 1.34mL/44lbs = 0.03mL/lb
2.67mL will treat up to 88lbs: 2.67mL/88lbs = 0.03mL/lb
4.02mL will treat up to 132lbs: 4.02mL/132lbs = 0.03mL/lb

I simply draw out of the package with a syringe&needle the desired volume of drug, remove the needle from the syringe, and then apply to the back of our dogs with the blunt end of the syringe. Any left over drug I save in a glass vial for the next time we treat.

The weight ranges also provide you with what the drug company thinks are safe maximum doses.

1.34mL will treat from 23lbs = 0.058mL/lb
2.67mL will treat from 45lbs = 0.059mL/lb
4.02mL will treat from 89lbs = 0.045mL/lb