3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[palmtreefrb]

kabb wrote:
I bought the Generator that was offered on Ebay for $225 on Friday. It is being sold from San Bernardino CA. They have a second location in Cypress only 30 miles from my house. I went out there and paid cash. It is the Jiang Dong JD3000 6.5 hp with a C25 (is that single 25 amp?) breaker on it. Seems loud though, my first gen so maybe I don't know what 67db should sound like. I've been following this thread from the beginning and have picked up some great info. I want to build a box around it to cut the noise and build a pigtail for the 30amp RV plug from the back of the AC plug.

From my post does this sound like the same ELIM3000 from PEP Boys?

Thanks,
-Bob

Bob, what is the address of the one in Cypress?
Rick

[kabb]

I bought the Generator that was offered on Ebay for $225 on Friday. It is being sold from San Bernardino CA. They have a second location in Cypress only 30 miles from my house. I went out there and paid cash. It is the Jiang Dong JD3000 6.5 hp with a C25 (is that single 25 amp?) breaker on it. Seems loud though, my first gen so maybe I don't know what 67db should sound like. I've been following this thread from the beginning and have picked up some great info. I want to build a box around it to cut the noise and build a pigtail for the 30amp RV plug from the back of the AC plug.

From my post does this sound like the same ELIM3000 from PEP Boys?

Thanks,
-Bob

[kabb]

Prof,
Would pounding a 8" tent stake in the ground then removing it and pour some water in the hole then pound the stake back in work for grounding the Generator? Sounds like it would. You would have 8" of metal in wet ground connected with a wire to the ground post on the generator.

-Bob

[TeamSlacker]

mkmathis wrote:
Power wise 3500 had a bearing freeze and my fuel gauge was broke. quote]

Ran my PowerWise3500 all day yesterday at the track and didn't even hicup.

You may want to just pull those 2 screws that hold the fuel gauge. Mine seemed to not work when I got it, so I pulled it out. It's just a simple float on a stick that moves the red line. The float/lever may have just got stuck in shipping. I did notice the first time I filled mine up the gauge doesn't seem very accurate either. I don't think it started to register until it was about 3/4 full. Even with a full tank I dont' think it registered full. Could probably be fixed by bending the wire the float hangs on, but I wasn't concerned about it.

[mkmathis]

Well, as I posted before, my Power wise 3500 had a bearing freeze and my fuel gauge was broke. Since then I have exchanged it for another one. Unfortunately my gas gauge was broken again straight from the box. And I called a buddy who also bought one and he told me that his gauge was broken as well. So this is a small and annoying problem but worth dealing with for the price and amount of noise level.

This weekend I took it to Sand Mtn and ran it all weekend and it did great. Everyone that I camped with was very impressed and I am sure that they will be looking for one soon.

[mustangman]

RadioNeal wrote:
My local Pep Boys circular is again showing the Nikota 3500 Watt 6.5HP generator on sale for $299.00 at stores in my area. (Broward and Palm Beach Counties in Sunny South Florida.)

Pep Boys ad for Nikota 3,500 Watt Generator

If you click on the photo in the ad, the unit clearly says 5.5HP, but the ad copy says 6.5HP.

If I get the time, I'll drive over and have a look.

Cheers!

how does this Gen from Nikota compare to the elim 3000 with noise levels?value? does anyone else recommend it,,where can i find a dam elim 3000 or simular model? thanks

[subcamper]

Professor, you are right about the (lack of) reliability of GFI units. I must have 20 GFI plugs in my house and garage. Like you, I believe GFIs are invaluable for protection against shocks, especially with kids (we have 6). At one time or another, half have become inoperative and have had to be replaced. The bad part is that there is no obvious indicator that they are bad unless they are tested regularly (and who REALLY does that). We have had all the GFIs in the garage damaged by an apparent surge or spike from a lightning storm.

In critical areas, I wonder if there is a higher-reliability unit (hosp grade?) that would cost more but be more reliable. When new GFIs go for $5, there must be huge pressure at the manufacturer to cut costs and parts count to keep competitive in the market. Being an EE and having worked at several places that faced the same cost pressures, I am pretty familiar with the reliability vs cost issue.

Steve

[professor95]

Does the 20 amp ground fault circuit interrupter between the generator and the camper prevent most problems that could arise from a faulty generator or another electrical problem?

Most Problems (that could cause a dangerous electrical shock)? Yes.

Again, as long as the GFCI is operating properly.....................

[toprudder]

As long as the GFCI is operating properly, it would detect any leakage from an appliance through you to a ground, providing a level of protection otherwise not present.

It would seem to me that if a generator was *ungrounded* then it would be similar in concept to an isolation transformer, ie: the chance for leakage current would be nil.

Don't get me wrong, I think having a GFCI is mandatory. You never know when something will "complete the circuit" somewhere else.

I helped a friend work on an old Jaguar once when he was trying to install a stereo. This was a *positive* ground system and the radio was designed for negative ground. I isolated the radio, turned it on and got a reassuring "thump" from the speakers. So, I decided to plug in the antenna lead and all of a sudden wires started lighting up!! The sheild of the antenna lead was grounded and caused a short circuit. Duh!

[Clark_W__Griswo]

professor95 wrote:
Yes, being inside an RV is somewhat like that bird sitting on a power line that does not get shocked. As long as you do not come in contact with ground, you may not be at risk. But, explain that to the family of the now deceased guy who managed to electrify the entire frame and aluminum skin on his camper with a faulty generator that just happened to touch ground and the camper at the same time.

Does the 20 amp ground fault circuit interrupter between the generator and the camper prevent most problems that could arise from a faulty generator or another electrical problem?

[subcamper]

Another option for the GFI is to use a 30A circuit breaker/GFI in a small breaker box. The box could be mounted to the generator or have male/female cords coming out with 30A connectors. I haven't priced the GFI breakers but its possible that the parts could total up to substantially less than the $100 for an in-line RV GFI unit.

Steve

[RadioNeal]

My local Pep Boys circular is again showing the Nikota 3500 Watt 6.5HP generator on sale for $299.00 at stores in my area. (Broward and Palm Beach Counties in Sunny South Florida.)

Pep Boys ad for Nikota 3,500 Watt Generator

If you click on the photo in the ad, the unit clearly says 5.5HP, but the ad copy says 6.5HP.

If I get the time, I'll drive over and have a look.

Cheers!

[professor95]

have the RV electrical surge protector with GFI shown in this link:

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?deptID=&subOf=98,55&skunum=18337

Should that item protect me and the RV appliances provided I am using it on whatever source of power the RV is connected to, generator or shore power?

I have one of these as well. It is the 30 amp unit I spoke of that is around a $100.00.

Your device will protect you from a ground fault, or current in one of the two legs of the supply voltage that is greater than the other. I consider it a "MUST HAVE" item from an electrical safety standpoint in any RV.

But, when connected to a generator it does not provide a gounding connection unless the generator is bonded to earth ground. As long as the GFCI is operating properly, it would detect any leakage from an appliance through you to a ground, providing a level of protection otherwise not present. The key word here is "working properly". We both know that it is not a question of if the GFCI will fail or not, but when. Hopefully, it will give good protection for many years - but can we always be sure? For 100% safety, you still need the earth ground bonded to the generator frame and the RV frame in addition to the GFCI. That said, this is rarely ever done. The additional risks are minimal when using a GFCI in the suply line - but they are still there.

[Red_Clay_Ramble]

Professor,

I have the RV electrical surge protector with GFI shown in this link:

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?deptID=&subOf=98,55&skunum=18337

Should that item protect me and the RV appliances provided I am using it on whatever source of power the RV is connected to, generator or shore power?

Thanks.

[professor95]

I received an e-mail this morning from a forum reader asking for some additional information and clarification concerning grounding of AC generators, or alternators, in respect to RVs.

I am sharing my reply on the forum thinking others may have the same or similar questions.
...................................
It makes no difference where the current originates, from the power company, a generator or even "lightning", electrons will seek out a path to earth ground - or better stated, the place where the greatest difference in potential exists. What you want to do is be sure that you do not provide that current path should a fault occur in an electrical device that you may come in contact with.

Yes, being inside an RV is somewhat like that bird sitting on a power line that does not get shocked. As long as you do not come in contact with ground, you may not be at risk. But, explain that to the family of the now deceased guy who managed to electrify the entire frame and aluminum skin on his camper with a faulty generator that just happened to touch ground and the camper at the same time.

The reason ground rods are galvanized or copper clad is as you suggested - to prohibit corrosion, which can create a high resistance to the flow of electrons.

Ground rods like the one for your home are required by the NEC and/or local codes to be at least 8' feet in length so that we have reasonable assurance that they will at some point contact moist soil. Dirt or sand without moisture is either a non conductor or poor conductor - depending upon the minerals in the soil and the organic content.

If the soil is moist all the way to the surface, it is not necessary to have a ground rod driven down to a distance of 8' to create a safe electrical ground. Under these conditions a 4' rod is usually adequate. The minimum requirment to provide a safe ground would be a one foot long rod providing at least 20 square inches of contact with moist earth. Thus, a contact patch, like a metal plate, can also suffice provided it gives the minimum requirment of 20 square inches (yes, my 4" metal cover is 4" short of this). But, the key idea here is moisture MUST be present in the soil and on the surface for these methods to work.

As to your question about the metal jacks attached on your camper frame providing a safe ground when dropped so as to contact the soil: Yes, they may be adequate providing the above conditions for moisure and contact area are met. But you know as well as I do that in the summer or in regions that have little rainfall sufficient moisture may not be present to make this a good grounding source.

I still advocate the use of a 20 amp ground fault circuit interrupter between the generator and the camper. You can also buy GFCI units rated for 30 ampres at RV supply stores, but these run about $100 each. IMHO, that is a small price to pay for personal safety and affords additional protection with both shore and portable power.

I hope this helps to further explain your question about what constitutes a working electrical gound for RVers.